Karaoke Forums

Morten,
What you need is a mic cord with an XLR connecter at one end for the mic, and a 1/4" jack at the other for the player. Save the mic cord with the XLR connecters for when you get a mixer that accepts them.
Stay out of Radio Shack! Many of thier products are overpriced junk, and you get sales people that don't know what they're talking about.
For example:
I went into a Radio Shack to get some bananna jacks about two days ago. All that they had, had black bodies. The kid that worked there had no problem understanding that the red and black rings helps to keep the speaker polarity straight, but I had to pound it into his head that the red and black bodies were nessasary to indicate the right from the left speaker wire. SO dence! 12 gauge spring clip adapters were $10 for a set of four. I've seen them online for $6 for a set of eight.
You can get mic stands just about anywhere for about $30. Try Sam Ash, The Guitar Center, Carvin, Peavey, or shop on line. You can get a TV monitor stand for a 13" TV with mic holders for around $100. Make sure that the mic holders are a part of the stand, and not plastic clip-ons. I had a partner who had a stand with clip-on mic holders. People kept pulling them off when they went to get the mic, leaving us to go fetch them out from under some table.

Post Script:
You can get an adapter that will accept an XLR output and adapt it to a 1/4" jack, but you don't want a pre amp or some kind of transformer that changes a low Z mic output to a high Z output. The only reason that you would want to do this is if you were using a unit that runs off of high Z mics. To change a high Z mic to a low Z mic, you would have to add capcacitance. High Z mics are what's used by CBers or by pilots, since they take alot of phyiscal absuse, and get banged around a lot. Just use the right mic cord.

Sorry, what I meant to say was that to change a low Z mic to a high Z mic you'ld have to add capacitance. It does'nt work the other way around.

hmmm...

I thought the player had a high Z input and the SM58 a low Z output?

I also thought that if you connect the ground and one of the conductors together in effect you loose the shielding effect?

From that point of view terminating the balanced part (microphone and XLR cable) in a transformer seems reasonable. Then the only unbalanced part would be from the transformer (built into the converter) to the input of the player.

Morten

Morten,
Hi and low Z is a relative term. The players mic input has enough capacitance to run a steel string guitar with a snap in pick-up. I doubt however, that you'ld be pleased trying it with a reg electric guitar that has 3 pick ups. Pin 1 on an XLR connecrer is common. Pin 2 is hot. Pin 3 is cold. Don't over think this. Just use the right cord. XLR connecter for the mic, and 1/4" jack for the player. Go to balanced cords after you get a mixer. Trying to screw around here with some kind of a gizmo will do you no good. Trust me. Don't listen the the fools at Radio Shack. DON'T buy thier gadget! I've seen it, and I know exactly what it is. One more connection and more resistance on the mic line. A waste of money. If you want to go with balanced XLR cords, get a mixer. Stay out of Radio Shack!
I can only guess that this where you were fed this screwy info. If not tell me and I'll stand corrected. I'm quite sure that an audio eng. didn't tell you this. Like I said before, just use the right cord.

By the way, I see in the Carvin cataloge that you can get a MS-15 mic stand for $20.

Just so you know,
Virtually all mic cords are balanced, even cords that have a 1/4" jack on one end. An unbalanced cord is what a "do-it-your-selfer" gets when he doesn't know how to soldier. The only thing that a cord that has XLR connecters on both ends affords you is protection against transients. For you, this is when you pick up a cheapo mic that's not made of plastic, and get a buzz every time you touch it. There are other transients, but they don't apply to you.

Kojak,

I am not an audio engineer, but I do have a EE degree (M.Sc+Ph.D.). I am fully aware of the level of competency exhibited by the typical store personel. Most of the time 5 minutes on the Internet means that you know more than the standard store person. I therefore never discuss any of my purchases with the store personel.

I looked at the discussion on: http://www.colomar.com/Shavano/cable_xlr_to_phone.html

I seems to make sense, at least to me. The way I see it, if an XLR cable is directly connected to a 1/4" plug there is no balanced benefit. On the other hand if a transformer is used the balanced benefit (rejection of common mode noise) should still persist. As an added side benefit the transformer should also increase the signal swing.

For microphone stands: should I get a tri-pod or round base, how about boom vs. straight?

Thanks,

Morten

Morten,
Let's end the discussion on cords. You can only do what you think is best.
It's your money, and you're the person that has to be pleased with how you spend it.
About mic stands:
A stand with a tripod base is more stable than one with a round base, but I doubt that the abount of stability will be an issue. A tripod is easier to trip on. A stand with a round base can be tilted towards you. Many singers, especially rockers, love to do this. I've seen them pick up the stand and dance around the stage with it, or just drag it behind themselves.
Carvin has a stand with a tripod base and a boom on it for $30. A stand with a boom is great for when you're sitting at the piano, or for when you're sitting and playing the guitar. A boomless stand should be able to be lowered enough to accomodate a guitarist, but the guitarist will be a little cramped for room to play. If you want to sit at a piano and sing, that's a differant story. You'll need a boom.
For about $50 you can get a snap in pick up that will allow you to amplify any STEEL string guitar. Snap the pick up into the sounding hole under the strings, and plug the 1\4" jack into one of the player's mic inputs.

Kojak,

I researched cords and plugs some more (I know you asked to end the discussion, sorry). Anyway, do you know if the input on the RSQ MV-333/JVC tripple tray players are TS 1/4" or TRS 1/4"?

BTW. I really appreciate all your help. You have been very generous with your time.

Thanks,

Morten

Morten,
These players use a TS jack. No stereo. Even if you send a stereo signal into your unit by using more than one mic input, you'll get a mono output. The stereo output from your player is from the CD/CDG/VCD reader only. All mic channels are connected in paralle after the mic vol controls.

On a personal note:
I have no problem with spending my time talking with to you. After all, you ARE the first person that I know of that's come here BEFORE buying.
There have been others, but the only one that I can think of offhand just wanted to know if they should buy a Singing Machine. Everyone said no, and that was that.

Post again!
Good Luck!

Update,

just got my Shure SM58 a few days ago. Boy, did that make a difference over the cheap Radioshack ($20) POS I bought just to pass the time.

I now have:

RSQ MV-333
Shure SM-58
Microphone stand
XLR to 1/4" mono (as you (Kojak) suggested)
13" Panasonic TV for lyrics
Peavey microphone stand (round base)
Presently using my hifi stereo.

My sound seems pretty ok at the moment. I am slowly buying CD+G's. Anyone know where to buy Foundation close to wholesale price? The price on Doowop seems high.

One of my CD+G's is a U2 cdg from Soundchoice. So far Bono is too much of a challenge for me. Is U2 considered to be difficult to sing? I am doing much better with Beatles.

Morten

Another update and a few questions...

Just bought Brick 1 at Ebay for $120 (brand new). Lost out on Foundation 1 (used) for $325. Was to cheap waited for a better deal -- regret!

I tried to record myself today, using an old tape recorder. I sang on pitch, but boy did I sound boring (no good definition). This is still into my stereo with no eq. The cdg's don't seem to need eq, but I think I do. I this expected or do I need to work (a lot more) on my singing abilities?

I also bought "Singing for dummies". So far it is a pretty good book.

BTW what are the trade-offs between two way and three way speakers?

Regards, Morten

just listen to them!

You can definately hear the difference. As for the technical aspects, I'll leave that to my esteemed collegues!

regarding tape recorder -- it is old and turned out not to work very well. I switched to a hifi vcr which I am now using as a recorder. Sounds much better. Still, getting a compressor would be nice since volume is quite sensitive to distance from mic.

What is the best compressor brand that isn't too expensive?

Thanks, Morten

Morten,
Forget about compressors. Think mixers. How are you going to mix a compressed signal with a dry signal without one? Proper use of a compressor involves just that. You will have to make eq adjustments to both the wet, (compressed), and dry, (unprocessed), signals. Compression has NOTHING to do with volume. It has to do with signal dynamics. If you were to draw a sound wave on graph paper, it should not look like an "S" that has been rotated 45 degrees. If it does, you should rescale your graph. It should look like a series of sharp little peaks and valleys. The large, high amplitude, high frequency peaks are hard on home stereo speakers, and make pro systems sound harsh. Let's call these dynamics. Too much high frequency dynamics will cause your tweeters to get hot and fry. Too much low frequency dynamics will cause the cones in your woofers to tear. Once you're set up so that you're sending all of the dynamics to your speakers that you dare and you want to make your sound "fatter" you can do so by superimposing a compressed signal over the dry signal. More signal without any more dynamics. Your compressor should be able to mix the wet and dry signals just fine, but it won't have any way to discern the differance between the vocal channel and the music channel unless you use a mixer. That's because they're both one channel until you plug your mic into one channel strip, (on a mixer), and the audio out from your player into another channel strip. Both can be sent to your compressor independantly of each other. The preamps found in karaoke players are rather poor. Get a mixer with a level indicator. This will solve a multitude of problems, including those that you seem to be having with making recordings.
Look at it this way:
If you're praticeing a new song at 3:00 A.M. and you don't want to wake up the kids, (or your wife), you'll probably be playing the stereo so low that you won't really have to use the mic. If you have a tape recorder sitting there recording what's going on, it will hear you singing and the music playing and it should be a pretty good balance unless you get carried away and start belting it out. Then it would then record too much vocal, and not enough music. If you pick up the mic and start using it so that you can hear yourself coming out of the speakers along with the music, it'll record you singing, the music playing through the speakers, AND your singing coming through the speakers. When you play back this recording it will sound like you've too much mic. Of course your recorder isn't just sitting there on the table and recording through some kind of built in mic., it's connected to your system. It will only hear you singing through the mic alone and the music. You cannot say the same thing, that's why you need a level indicator.
Note:
When you plug your mic into the mixer you'll lose the karaoke player's echo effect. I use my processer's echo for karaoke and save the compressor effect for straight canned music.
Good Luck!

another update,

today I am the lucky owner of a pair of Carvin 1584 speakers (bought used on Ebay, though not yet received). These are 3-way speakers (15" woofer, 8" mid, trebble horn). I want to make sure that I don't kill my hifi speakers. Also with the PA speakers I can turn trebble back up again, right?

My plan is to get a Carvin C844 mixer and then in the beginning run though my 150W RMS@8ohmx2 monoblocks. Later on I will add a DCM2000.

Looking at all the alternatives this looked most attractive to me.

Morten

Kojak,

I thought compressors also could be used for AGC (automatic gain control) if used with slow settings. Perhaps I should just practice to sing consistently...

Thanks for your explanation of my recording issue. That of course makes perfect sense. So the solution is to turn up the volume really high, so most of the sound comes from the speaker Hopefully, the better mic input on a mixer would also make the sound more crisp, right?

Is a Behringer compressor/limiter any good? I was thinking to use it with the mixer (using the insert function) to hard limit the mic input(s) individually, just in case someone decides to scream into tne mic or drop it... Or should I just limit the mains instead?

Morten

sorry double post

Morten,
Congratulations on the 1584s. These have been on my wish list for quite some time. The only down side is the fact that they weigh 74lbs. Carvin calls this a lightweight design. Right! They say the same thing about the 159lb. SW 1802. Go ahead and turn the treble up. I've never heard anything about a compressor controling gain. I have heard of limiters doing this, and I've heard of compressor/limiters, but I believe that these are compleatly seperate functions.
I've looked at the C844 mixer in my products cataloge and I couldn't see any trim control. This could be the 2nd knob from the top of the channel strip, but I just can't tell what that knob is for sure. My Mackie has a trim control. This is a mic input level adjustment on the channel strip. It behaves like the gain control, (turning it up makes the mic vol. louder). the only differance is that this is before the preamp and parametric eq controls. Once this is properly adjusted, keeping the gain turned down will prevent channel clipping when somebody yells into the mic. If you need more mic vol, turn up the main output. If this makes the music channel too loud, turn down the gain on that channel. Remember... mains hot, channels cold.
Your choice of speakers, amp, and mixer makes me wonder if you've plans to go pro. You don't really need any other doo-dads or gizmos other than a power conditioner, (mainly for surge protection), and an outlet tester to make sure that your outlets are properly wired. You can find an outlet tester for about $5 at any good hardware store.
Save your plans to get maximisers, compressors, kosmos units, and airodynamic sound wave deflecters for an other day.
Please post again when you get your speakers. 3-way speakers aren't always the best choise for voice, but I love the way that the graph looks for the 1584s. Generally speaking, 2-ways may be better for voice, and 3-ways may be better for music, but karaoke is a combo of both. There's a rumor going around that while a 15" woofer will give you bigger and nicer bass than a 12" woofer, it won't have as much "punch". Let me know your opinion on how the 1584s sound for music and how they sound for voice. Let me know, what you think of thier bass responce for music and for voice as well. You mentioned once that you did OK singing Beatles songs. You may need to get someone else to give an opinion on how well the 1584s work for low voices. Tennessee Ernie Ford was a baratone, not a (2nd) bass. Find a true bass and let him do his thing and give you an opinion. The guy that did "The Grinch Who Stole Christmas" and the Tony the Tiger commercials is a true (2nd) bass. So am I. Don't let some guys macho ego fool you. I heard many machos rattle at the bottom of thier range and think that they were basses. If you can find a true bass to test these speakers for you, turn the bass down on your stereo to eliminate "boominess" and "muddiness". How a speaker responds to a bass voice and how it responds to a bass guitar is two compleately differant stories. Being that my voice is SO low pitched I really have a vested interest in this. Thanks!

Kojak,

no plans for going pro -- I am pretty happy with my day job. I just like my toys too much (engineer). Also, I would like to teach my seven year old son (and three year old daughter) to sing and play guitar. So I thought it would be neat to get something good for a small band also.

If I understand your description right the 844 does not have a trim. There is a gain control for each channel controlling the gain of the balanced amplifier in addition to the fader. Carvin recommends turning the differential receiver gain fully up to suppress noise as much as possible. Carvin also recommends always running the channel faders hotter than the main fader, again to limit noise. Perhaps your suggestion reduces the risk with a little bit of extra noise from the mixer? Of course Carvin is thinking about live sound, not some drunk yelling in the microphone. If you are interested Carvin has manuals for all their equipment posted online and they are quite informative. I was looking at a powered head and I noiticed that a PA1200 is very similarly priced as a DCM1000+C844. And I like the capabilities of the 844 much better.

I might get the speakers over the weekend or perhaps early next week, I am just in the process of agreeing on a time with the guy. Probably doesn't matter since my speakon connectors won't be here until wednesday anyway.

I will be happy to report back to you when I get the speakers and try them out. Even though my monoblocks are only 150W RMS/channel since the new speakers are 8 dB more sensitive than my hifi speakers, I should still be able to produce a reasonable sound preassure. My hifi speakers have deep and well controlled bass (34 Hz) since each speaker has two 8" long throw woofers, so it should be very easy to hear if the new ones are muddy. Initially I will test them out standing on the floor. Now if only I could find a 2. bass...

I am probably more of a tenor -- right now I am working on Beatles, Enrique, John Denver, and a little bit of U2. I am getting better at U2 but still have a way to go.

BTW I would think the 1584's will reproduce voice very well since the midrange is covered by a 8" speaker rather than a 15". It seems to me that the smaller speaker should be faster and more controlled. Also the 1584 as far as I know has a better horn (titanium compression) than some of the smaller models.


Morten