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i do think you are misinterpreting what i mean by emotion, of course i wouldn't expect any singer to sound like the original artist, my own voice sheshhh i couldn't sound like anyone but myself so why would i expect another singer to do something that isn't possible.

I simply stated and syber i do think i was extremely fair i pointed good and negative things about the song...i just believed the whole song was flat and not pitch just flat as in no zest no feeling no emotion. you sang the song that was it.

Syber you can do better and you have done better, this was just not the song for you...am i really so wrong in trying to give you my opinions on the song when you asked for them??

Syber you must have heard the original else you wouldn't know the song unless you were reading sheet music and you used a karaoke backing so sheet music is doubtful...so you must have heard the emotion in the song.

Your pet hate syber is pitch, myself i can overlook pitch errors but what does move me and makes me want to listen is how someone interprets a song. I have commented on some of your other songs...overload for instance i simply commented your doing well and it was meant with sincerity because i could see you tried very hard.

After once again debating with myself i just think that perhaps no matter what i say you and your husband believe you deserved a better ranking than the average one i gave...that is not fault, you asked for honesty you got it you do not have to agree with me nor does anyone else on this site...but please don't slam me for trying.

I will just from now on listen to your subs and if i think you did a great job i will say nice job, if it's lacking in any form in my opinion i will just not say and not comment nor rank that way your happy and i don't have to sit here then trying to bloody justify myself for giving you something you asked for with the C cat.

No matter what kind of sub jff or C i normally can find something good about a performance...and i found something good in yours, your pitch errors as you stated in your description were not as bad as your description led me to believe, and i did think you did a good job with the mixing, sometimes mixing a song can be as important as vocals because someones performance can be amazing vocally but if its mixed bad that disrupts you away from the vocals.

Syber i cannot say anymore to you, i apologise to you and jean if what i said you took offence to, but i genuinely did only say what i felt about that particular song.

Ok, Missy... I certainly don't begrudge you your opinions, nor do I believe your critiques were overly harsh. Although I did not and will not burst a capillary over your rating (a self admitted 5), I think I DO have the right to be somewhat offended about that because YOU do not GIVE '5's.

I cannot but help to feel that I was being 'singled out' by you (and perhaps another person I will not name, but it wasn't Brett), since I recall you having VERY STRONG OPINIONS about 'low' ranking. I remember a thread where you declared you would NEVER rank below an '8'. Tigrr still has a copy of the thread if you do not remember.

I looked back through all of your comments on other songs... I'm not going to do much of this, but only enough to make my point. This will probably insult some folks, but it's worth making my point. Here are some highlights from your comments, and my comments on the same:

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Maryokekaraoke - Babe I'm Gonna Leave You - overall rank - 9.8/10 (rank you gave by your admission) - 10.

Your comment: you never fail to amaze me...the power you have and range jeez lassie you rock...critique...no chance this is sheer perfection and one of the best ive EVER heard on showcase!!! you go girl cause this is amazing!

Well ok, it was a good song. I REALLY liked her vocal quality and her pitch was flawless. The song rocked for the most part, but she sounded kind of 'odd' on her lower notes. Otherwise, I thought it was great. I gave it a 9. Oh, and what's with all the stuff about 'range'? That song probably only has a range of about an octave.

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Cantstopsinging - Somewhere Over The Rainbow - overall rank 9.4/10

Your comment: i once tried to sing this and kept falling into fits of laughter cause it sounded like i was singing weigh a pie instead of way up high hehehe the accent thing hehehe....you did this beautifully sweetie really pretty ...nice power to your upper range...really well done!!! and i hate ranking and only just learning to critique hehehe

I would have given this an 8... pitch was good enough that I couldn't spot anywhere in particular where she went off, but she has a harsh vocal quality not well suited to that song and a very wide, uncontrolled vibratto (which makes it hard to tell if she's actually on pitch or not at any given point). Not bad, but it did make me wince a few times.

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and lastly... Kbonz - Pledging My Love - overall rating 6.7

Your comment: you sing with tons of emotion kbonz...watch your pitch though that is my only critique, but def has not stopped me enjoying your performance ...really well done ) and yes get subbing some more hehehe

I gave him a 5. I didn't notice any particularly impressive emotion to the submission and his pitch was just ALL over the place on that sub, and most of his others. Regardless of what anyone might say about pitch, I stress it alot because it's just SO important to a vocal performance! Now let's remember, my current rating on my sub is a '7' (and it was actually LOWER than this one by Kbonz). Kbonz overall rating as a singer??? 9.5!!!

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Sure, little pitch issues can be fixed and it's VERY difficult for most of us to give a 'pitch perfect' performance, that's why I usually don't mention truly small pitch problems... but if a person has very good pitch, they can work on other aspects of their singing and become fairly good in most instances. However, people who simply have little or no concept of being 'on pitch' are not going to do well as singers.

So, I just can't help myself Missy. I believe you are being a hypocrite by giving my submission a '5'. As I said, I don't necessarily disagree with your 'critique', but the rating was just waaayyyy out of bounds FOR YOU... unless you have decided to completely change your rating system and plan to start handing out 5's (and less) to other folks (at which point, I will feel that I owe you an appology).

I believe this is particularly 'spiteful' in your case, since you have made it so completely clear (in the past, I grant that you may have changed) that any 'critiques' of YOUR subs, are unwelcome and are generally met with hostility.

If I am wrong, I am sorry. If you have decided to take a new approach to critiquing and being critiqued, for heaven's sake please do so! I KNOW you have the ability to critique quite well, I've seen you do it.

I think this is a good idea. Options are good, and that leaves more room to make suggestions without the obligation of rating. I often select prefer not to rate anyway.

Also, it really needs to be stressed here that we all don't necessarily like the same music or singers, in addition to musically correct reasons, there are a few singers who are technically correct, on key, maybe be good performers, but something in their voice leaves me cold.

It can be a very nasal quality where they simply resonate with head tone, or it can be warbling where they kinda go in and out of pitch and it gets on my last nerve. This is where is gets really subjective. Obviously, everyone here are not heavy metal fans are alt, or is everyone into country (although it seems a pretty hefty share in here are).

So we can have an Amercian Idol type of thing going on where a singer argues with Simon, curses, swears they will be the next Britany Spears  flips them off, and is sure in their heart, they are incredible.

Let's face it. Egos are delicate things and that is what it all comes down to really.

Now (having had a nap now and recharged) we can get into major debates on who has a right to give what point score based on what. This one is a wide open threader shredder which can never be resolved.

It lies in a specific remark I heard once on the "qualifications" required to have the right to critque a persons voice or performance. What seems to be a measure of this in the outside world? Sometimes, Paula Abdul, it's simplly being a star or famous singer yourself. Sometimes it's having been in the music business for eons either working in studios, as an agent, or technician. Some of it here, seems to be at times, being a Karaoke DJ and hearing singer after singer. After awhile you get to know, who has a real shot of making it commerically and who does not.

My beef is the rating system and secondly the abuse of that system in giving inflated ratings to poor performances and harsher ratings to better ones.

Since the issue here was my comment - which I still have affirmed publically and privately never was aimed at any individual, that Seby's non clone version of a song did not deserve a 5 or 6 rating, not because it does not clearly state a 5 is average, because people here do not usually give 5s even if a song is horrid.

In fact, there are truly horrid songs with stacks of 10s, and I will state again, I don't see anyone with 5,6 or 7 general ratings. I definitely don't see anyone with 2-4 ratings.

I try not to put up a song which I think is going to get an average rating. At least for crtique. If I know my version is not great and want to put it up just because I feel like doing the the song I will do a JFF.

I don't do a ton of JFF and ironically some of my JFF, like "You're so beautiful" probably could have held their own being rated.

And, for whatever reason, profesional or not, there are going to be certain people who just are not "you're cup of tea" the whole package - as I am sure is true of how some people may feel about me.

My voice is a little different and it is not a star quality blow them away voice. Some people like it and the songs I write a lot. Some people may find it mildly annoying, and a few may hate it.

I have not had the situation yet in life where someone has come up to me and said.. you should forget being a singer, you suck. Obviously on American Idol it happens.
In Kararaoke scene it shouldn't happen really, because it doesn't matter if you suck if you just want to sing and submit things for fun, and have people comment.

I have read subbers say, well, I know this sucks. Sometimes I will comment, you know, you're wrong. It's pretty raw, and you won't be making a record (when there were records) soon, but I liked it.

So I have made peace with Brett. I never attacked him personally, but he felt I did. And sheeesh, who would post on a boring thread. Come on, admit it. You people like stuff that is interesting to talk about, and this thread has gone on hasn't it.

Brett, Seby, and I are okay with it. But honestly, the battle will rage on about the rating thing. Curse Bo Derek the 10, huh. Don't we all want to be 10s?  

Well, maybe I am just the ambitious type. Maybe some people are okay with being okay or average. I know for sure, telling a girl she's average in a bar isn't going to get you a lot of points. Of course, telling her she sucks isn't either. So when I rate, especially females and due to the the fact I am taken, I am not looking to charm anyone.

This is a stressful world. I would like to kinda drift into KS and not wince when things get heated, but since some have performed and worked with band members, then you must realize, on tour, it don't work that way. Watch the Metallica movie. Talk about mind games and wars.

Conflict is the essence of drama, and in most romances, the two protagonists general start by fighting.  Evolution.

I know, people shake there head and say Jean, you are truly a rambler -
point being - nothing is quite as sure as change. Karaoke Scene, its pages, its members, its format will change. The opposite is boredom. And face it. I am sure none of you came here to be bored.

jvj

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There are no accidents in a perfect world   - Blondie

Well this thread definitely isn't boring people... Not that I see anyway...

And fine - I've had comments aimed at me since this thread, about whining etc...  The point is - Fine - the rating "issue" has been going on for ages but let me say this...

I am new to the site compared to many of you... and I feel REALLY sorry for the new people coming to the site...  How do you think they feel when they get here, as I did, and get slammed for not giving 10's to the subs that others had given a 10 for... or for giving an honest critique in a sub where it says clearly in big blue letters "Please critique this sub:"... I think thats downright wrong!

Its not the honesty and the critique option that is wrong and causing a problem... Its the people who promote "fluff" and who close ranks on anyone and everyone who doesn't follow that!  

That being said - I KNOW that I don't know about the past, and I've clearly stated that above, but Seby - Its WRONG to paste Missy's comments here and compare them to your own...  For many reasons...

Its wrong for you to imply that your comments and Missy's shouldn't be different... They darn well should!  Thats the brilliance of music!  It brings debate, it brings agreement, it brings diversity, and yet commonality!  Hell - many performers are the biggest drama queens that exist, and maybe I am one of them, but on the other hand, maybe I just believe in standing up for my beliefs...  And displaying those comments is COMPLETELY against them.

Its also WRONG to bring ANYBODY else into this... You could have used comments about one of my subs, or someone else who had brought themselves into this situation, but to use the comments on people who aren't involved and probably don't wish to be is wrong!

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Missy had every right to rank what she did, and she didn't even have to say what she gave... She did that out of respect and out of standing by her HONEST opinion.

You've clearly said that if she has chosen to rethink her ranking system, and critique ability, then you have an apology ready for her, and so I urge you Missy to explain if that is the case.

**********

I agree the rating system is probably never going to be used properly, and there should be an option not to use it, but lead by example... If you want to see honesty prevail, then start rating subs with relevance to the comments shown next to the specific ranks... Yes people will get upset, yes they will complain, but they WILL be better off in the long run...

I do NOT want to be responsible for those poor people who are devestated at auditions because they have been fluffed before, and then get told they are bad... I won't do it, and neither should any of you.  Don't say you are upset with the current ranking system, and not do anything to try to make it better...!  DO SOMETHING - However small...!

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One last thing - Missy - I want to publicly apologise for you being involved in this, for whatever reason you are... I, personally, do not know the past, but I DO know that in this case you meant to do good, and to do as I have been trying to encourage others to do, and have been caught in the crossfire...

None of this is your fault, and I know that in my heart, and by watching your ranks and comments in the past day or two, so PLEASE don't worry too much... Just try to take it on the chin, and don't let it discourage you...

Once more though, I urge you to follow up on what Seby said about changing your ranking habits, and gaining the apology you deserve...

Seby and JVJ, I thank you for such a debate, and I want to publicly state that I will continue to talk to you, and to listen to your subs and comment/rank fairly as I have done before this incident... I don't hold grudges, and as far as I'm concerned, as JVJ already said - its been resolved between us...

Much love to all,

Brett xx

PS - I RAMBLED!!!!!

As an outsider on this (I haven't commented or ranked on Seby's song), I think the REAL problem is the "two-tier" ranking that goes on...

Seby has made it clear that she welcomes honest critiques and ranks, therefore people feel more comfortable about giving her a tougher time on her subs..

Others who have put their songs up for ranking (and I'm not meaning anyone in particular) don't accept the critiques/ranks as well, therefore people feel that they can't give the critique/rank that the sub really deserves - and rank higher to spare feelings.

I'm not saying that this is right or fair, just my personal impression of what's happening on the showcase.

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Perfect observation Jacqui... And THAT is the problem... Not me, not Missy, Not even Seby and JVJ...

The system HAS to be used in the way it was meant which means that people in the "seby" group (who can accept the critiques and fair ranks that they are given) should be the ones subbing in "C"...

The other group should be subbing in JFF... That way none of us, and newbies/observers to the site don't have to be psychich or worry about checking if a person wants honesty... The category should be enough...

Spare feelings in the JFF category... Keep the C cat for those who want the honesty... Thats how it should be anyway from what I can see...

Brett x

well first off you can call me all the hypocrites you like....i stated clearly above....I HAVE ONLY JUST IN THE LAST FEW DAYS BEGAN RANKING!!!! and i do hate ranking, i hated ranking yours but i have began to think look how can i expect constructive critiscm if i cannot give it.  Before a few days ago i would only rank if i saw foul play and believe me yes there is a lot of foul play in the rankings, foul play happened to me the other day and yeah i thought sheesh, but that was because someone had said you blew me away, beautiful sub etc then my ranking went down by 3, i was scratching my head thinking well it was not a perfect performance it was in the C cat so why did the person not tell me honestly why she was ranking me a 4-6 i would have accepted it, but the truth of the matter was it was cause she had subbed the same song the same day as me and was a bit pissed that people thought it dis respectful or that was my take on the episode, but i did think to myself oh what the heck i aint getting into the politics of it  ive subbed the song in the C cat so i take the good with the bad and i just deleted the song. So foul play is happening....but it aint coming from me ok!!!

what i choose to rank someone is really none of anyones concern that is the chance you take when you put a sub up for C. syber i told you out of respect what i ranked i did not have to but i thought well since your husband is attacking people for unfair rankings i would say why i did....now look here lady you have admitted you are THE most toughest of rankers here....but this certainly looks to me like YOU can be as tough as you like but when it comes to YOUR subs hell no cause you obviously believe your better on that song to what i heard.

If you think this is a personal attack for past issues on you then why the bloody hell have i commented on your subs before and told you that you have done a good job....and also your husbands, i have said many times what happens in the forum and what i think personally of someone i will not take into the showcase because that is where people are performing i will not intentionally kick any other singer because i know damm well what it takes to sub a song. But fact of life some will like your songs some won't and that particular song you did...i personally felt was not suited for you.

Start asking around Syber i don't think in the showcase i have ever upset someone with my comments not to my knowledge.

Syber that song deserved the 5 i gave it in my opinion...it was average...and yes i wish i had of given you an 8 cause then we wouldnt be having this crap in the forum now.

I have tried coming around to peoples way of thinking and trying to be TOTALLY HONEST IN C CAT AND LOOK WHATS HAPPENING EH....this was under no circumstances a personal attack on you, i tried to be constructive and gave the rating i thought the song deserved in my own opinion.

I have only just begun to sub songs in the C cat myself and i go into sweats wondering what is gonna be said, but ive had to change my mind from JFF to C for those songs i want total honesty on because its for a reason...improvement and needing to know if that song is good for me for audition purposes,i am wanting to get back out there and join a band so for the songs i sub for critique i am asking people to be as harsh as they need to be, and i was quite aware doing this....i take the bloody negative critique with the good critique and learn from it if i can, i sit with a pen and paper on the subs for critique making notes to myself markers to improve.

As for pasting my comments which i gave people on their songs and then your comments....Music is a very objective thing, what you might think is not all that great another person's ear could think it was brilliant, this is a persons individuality, not everyone likes the same singers if they did then you would hear the same artists all the time and wouldnt the world be boring if that was so. Interesting you chose MaryokeKaraoke my comments to her, you thought i was comparing you to avril and believing i expected you to sing the song how Avril does, when Mary took a Led Zep song so would genetically be impossible for her to sound like Robert Plant and i gave that sub a Well DESERVED 10...that to me was a flawless performance she cracked 100 percent the feel, emotion, pitch, mix everything ...she made me shiver with excitement listening to her...that is how i ranked!!!

Whatever comments i make to people on their sub's i am very sincere about...yours included Syber, so if you want to believe this is a personal attack so be it....but as stated above i have never been afraid to say exactly what i think in the forum before so why the hell would i want to bite at you through the rankings when i can bite at you in the forum if i wished...because it was not a personal attack on you syber it was me being totally honest about THAT ONE song you subbed.

Whew! This has been quite an initiation for this newbie! There is such a wide range of karaokeers that the whole ranking system is hard to bring down to something everyone can agree on. American Idol has brought out a whole new dimension to critique that people didn't think out loud before. Being a music teacher, I have struggled with the issue of praise. Kids at home are being told by the adults in their lives that they are wonderful no matter how well they do something. If they do something poorly they are still praised. I cannot lie--even to little kids. If something sounds atrocious, I cannot say, "Beautiful!" Instead, I ask the kids--"How do you think we could make that better?" We need to be honest with young people from the get-go, and give them the ability to self-assess in a way that they can think, "How can I improve?" and be able to answer the question on their own. In a perfect world the ranking system would need to be given a rubric so that others know the specifics they should be ranking on. That way, a ranking could be objective. You would have categories to rank and the total would be their ranking. Otherwise, it is way too subjective to be valid. Then, you would also have to give the ranking system an ability level--for example, a professional singer should be ranked compared to other professionals. It's not fair for someone struggling to improve to be compared to someone who has been through a certain amount of education--be it in a classroom or in real life. So, to be honest, in this kind of forum, I am against ranking--some people expect to take it seriously, and others get hurt feelings if it is taken too seriously. Is there a place that states a "ranking policy" that goes beyond comments should be encouraging? I think those who do home karaoke are looking for a different kind of feedback than people who are shopping a demo around, know what I mean?
JC

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"Keep a smile on your face and a song in your heart!"

Ok Missy, I'm sure this isn't that important to you, but you have convinced me that it was not meant to be a personal attack. I look forward to seeing your honest ranking and critique on other folks in the future... and you know I'll be the first one to come to your side (or anyone else) when you start 'laying it on the line' to folks, and the fur starts flying. I will happily and honestly critique anything of yours... as you know from the private message I sent (which is what I had to imagine caused the 'attack').  

If you don't think my sub deserved more than a 5, so be it. I'll probably remove it anyway (not to improve my overall rank, but because if it really is that poor, I don't see any reason to have it online), and I hope you will come back to give me another listen when I get motivated (not to mention the time, I've got a busy week coming up) to record it again. If you are sincerely trying to join in the 'honest critiquing' bunch, I do appologize to you.  :handshake:

Well that looks like in one sentance you are saying your satisfied that i did not personally attack you, then the last sentance your saying that i am....now i am confused!

Syber it was not a personal attack, the sub endless love put up for critique you commented on, i replied to your comments asking if you wanted to offer ideas on how to improve my performace publicly, you didn't reply publicly which ok fair enough, you had every right to it was in C Cat but you chose to pm me with your views, i read them, some i agreed with some i didn't BUT i did not reply BECAUSE I HAD ACCEPTED YOUR VIEWS AND OPINIONS!!! this had no relevance in my thinking or ranking of your song i assumed that because the song was C Cat that you expected honest opinions just like i did on mine

i accept your apology graciously and i hope this is the end of the matter, i will continue to be as frank and honest as ive shown over the last few days in C CAT SUBS but will always always consider peoples feelings first and foremost

Ok, before I start, let me mirror what you said later in your post... I also don't hold grudges and I'm NOT trying to head into a major, personal war here.. but I AM about to disagree with you on some points.



Has anyone (yet) slammed you for not giving 10s? Don't get me wrong, it has happened in the past, and more than likely will in the future, but I want to make it clear that *I* never made this type of condemnation against you. I certainly don't expect 10s (I'm surprised when anyone thinks I deserve one), as I ALWAYS sort of 'pre-critique' my own subs, letting folks know I don't think they're perfect, or perhaps that I went off-pitch in place, whatever. Anyway, it's an honest question on my part. Has someone been giving you a hard time because you didn't give them a 10 rank?



Well, it's inflamatory... but I have to disagree that it's 'wrong'. The comments I posted were public comments, not private. I posted them to make a point and (at least to my eyes and a few others) that point was made. You simply do not understand that Missy was one of the lead crusaders (when I arrived) FOR 'fluffing', and I was put through the wringer. Those threads are still available privately, but have been deleted from the server because they became so hostile.

She claims she has 'turned over a new leaf' (so to speak), and I am giving her the benefit of doubt on that.. because indeed, I do NOT hold grudges and I try to allow people the opportunity to 'change' (while most people will try to keep you in the same puzzle-block they have always known you from).

I have now appologized to her, in anticipation of her new 'honest critiquing' endeavor, even offered my support (I KNOW how bad it can be out there... my husband (and I) have been exceptionally *kind* in this instance compared to some).



I never said she should have the same opinions as I do, BUT... I was attempting to show her propensity towards 'fluff' (although she did at least mention 'pitch' in the last example). It is, however, a moot point now, since she wants to go in a different direction. I'm still now sure why displaying public comments are against your beliefs, but you're entitled to your opinion and I'm sure others share your point of view.



Well to be honest, I would have used yours, mine and jvj's... but there weren't enough comments of the 'fluff' variety available. Since you are promoting pure 'honesty' here (as stated over and over above), I see no reason why I should not have made honest statements about other people's submissions. I'm not out to hurt people's feelings, but I have to be able to provide concrete evidence to support my point. A guy who can't even sing on pitch with a 9.5 overall ranking!! Come on...

I'm sure he's a nice guy and I've said supportive and construction things in his critiques, I think he honestly does have fun singing, but as I mentioned in the last critique I left him, perhaps he would more enjoy subbing in the 'JFF' category.

I provided concrete examples so folks could go listen for themselves and make up their own minds (privately of course, 99.9% of the people here would not be brave enough to publicly admit what they're thinking on many submissions).



Cool.. same back to ya. Oh, and 'rambling' is allowed here, apparently.

! Well, look on the bright side... none of it was directed at YOU! Oh, and welcome to the site.

I thought you made some wonderful points in your post, thanks for contributing.

Ok, I appologize for the confusion. I put 'attack' in quotes to signify that it wasn't actually an attack. It's like if someone posted... "Wow, that was just 'the best thing' I've ever heard", the single-quotes would, grammatically, signify that the person didn't really mean those words in that context.



Ok, remember... when I sent my full 'critique' to you, I was still thinking of you as a person who didn't really want an honest critique. I didn't know if you were simply baiting me, or if you REALLY wanted to know, thus the effort to send my comments via private message. I would be happy to post my single negative comment on your portion of the vocals publicly if you want me to... that is up to you. I sincerely wish you luck in your ambition to find a live group to sing with. I'm certain that you will be able to find a group to take you in, but I'm sure you don't expect it to be an easy road to travel, and it isn't.



Ok, cool. It's almost time for you to step up and sign Crystal's 'critiquers agreement'. Go for it, Missy... and most sincerely, good luck.

If the majority of singers are average....what's wrong with a 6...and I have heard very few perfect 10s....finally why not give a 1 where it is deserved....If you ask to be ranked then you should be ranked fairly....not 10s cause your my friend or 1s cause I'm mad at you....

I for one like ranking....and I would appreciate honest ranking....based on preformance and not personality....

it's all so simple...if you don't want to be ranked....don't ask to be...and if your gonna rank a sub do it with some integrity.....

why is this such a hot topic....beats me....we're all mostly average singers....there are very few 10s anywhere....and lets face it there are 1s out there....

and it doesn't matter stars, ranked by number, or little dancin' clowns....if your not honest it's all the same .....

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[glow=blue]Tequila & A Song
KKid[/glow]

Maybe both!......anyone uploadin' a song has the right to choose......no critique....no rankin'.....just for "fun".....or
critque....compare....rank.....compete....career building "possible"

don't we all come here for different reasons.....which make us unique personalities....which in turn makes this site great....

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[glow=blue]Tequila & A Song
KKid[/glow]

This site didn't invent this mentality... I've seen it on other site's and the only solution I can see is getting rid of the numbers. They have NEVER worked! Unless someone makes up a panel of unbiased people who only rate songs... and they ALL rate EVERY song... it will not be fair. If someone like Brett or Seby only listened to 3 or 4 songs a day.... those people who they visit will have a lower rating then the rest... and those few people will be upset! That's just how it is.... you can't monitor people or how they rate. When new people come here they will just be confused and upset (again) because it is so messed up! Most people view the ratings as a competition... as Steven pointed out. How can you expect people who are competing against you to be fair? I guess we could say... "well if they have any integrity yada yada".... but if you give someone a low score... and they in turn give YOU one.... who's to say it's honest or revenge? You will FEEL like they sniped you but how can you really know? This is a lost cause the way I see it. I gave up on rating or getting rated a long time ago... I think removing the numbers and just asking for a critique would bring about more helpful suggestions simply because the competitive aspect of the dreaded "number" has been removed.  Orrr.... you could submit in the JFF category and ask for helpful critiques as I've seen Matt and some others do. If you look up my posts on this topic over a year ago it basically says the same thing. Which is why I don't comment much on this topic any more....

Gracie asks is this site for career building or fun? this is my answer for what i gain/gained from this and other simular sites

Since i was a little girl i was always performing, church, school, family occasions, through my teens onwards in theatre shows, amateur operatic societies and then later live bands. Peoples lives can change at the blink of an eye and mine did overnight this was 2 and a half years ago...literally i went from always performing to never singing not even in the shower.

This went on for 12-18 months and then i came accross a singing site, it took me a futher few months to gain the courage to even sub a song, but i made a pact with myself that my life needed to change i could not let personal pain and anguish take what was the next most important thing in my life away to my family and friends...singing my passion.

So over time with the help unbeknown to people i began again to grow and grow get back confidence i had lost through subbing my songs..subbing everything and anything and people supporting me all along the way that have become very dear to me that don't even know how they helped but was their kind words and just the fact they listened.

very recently i was asked to perform again at a function and i thought i can't do this i can't do something that was once something not that long ago i was doing twice or more a week...but i remembered the pact i made with myself...and i agreed to perform 1 song. That was then that i had to take the bull by the horns and sub my song for critique...i needed to know i had chosen the right song and i trusted myself to everyone for my own personal battle and goals. i got a excellent response from here and for the first time i performed in public for 2 and a half years.

This is my journey, many have their reasons for subbing songs on JFF or C cat, i havent changed my mind on anything...i am just moving forward and trying to achieve my personal goals...and that is now taking me in the direction of subbing in both C and Jff cat and believing that people are subbing in the C cat because they want specifics for their own personal reasons. I want to go back to a time where i belonged and to do that i need to know that what i sing is right for me especiallly songs that i want to use to audition so i have demanded honesty by clicking the C.

I want the truth on those C songs because i trust that with the amount of talent here and taking everyones comments into consideration i am not gonna go far wrong...call this a confidence builder whatever it is all i know is that for those few songs i sub C those are the songs that are taking me along my personal crusade to get back what i lost 2 and a half years ago.

Syber asked me to sign the critiquers agreement i can't do that Syber because i don't belong to any group i am out here on my own trying to reach my goals and with the help that i have recieved i am slowly getting there I don't want to belong to any group on SS i want to belong to a group live and performing again that is the only ambition i have , i don't want fame nor fortune, i won't be the greatest vocalist ever i simply want to do something for me but i will say is if i listen to a sub in the C cat and i can offer constructive comments i will do so and be as fair about it .. there are many vocalists on here i couldnt offer critique to because in my eyes they are just so good and are constant in their performances, i honestly wouldnt know where to start and i have thought my god why is this in critique its perfect, but perhaps someone with more knowledge and experience would offer pointers to that person to work with.

everyone has reasons ... those are my reasons gracie and everyone else ...now i want to put my mask as i call it that i hide behind back on now and i will click the submit button before i even read back because i wont sub this else

You are alll very very special people and over time un beknown you have all helped

Hi GG--thanks for your lengthy explanation which makes the point I made a little while ago. Each and every one of us has a story--a different one--and, therefore, a different reason for submitting songs. Even if it is in the JFF category, each person is hoping for encouragement and enthusiasm for the song submitted since each person has put forth his or her best effort. If they click the dreaded C box, then they need to be prepared for a critique of their work--compared to the best singers on the thread. If they are ready for that (and even if they are not) each one realizes (I hope) what they are getting themselves into. If they submit before they are truly ready, I think that the people who have been doing it awhile can tell, and therefore, they are encouraging to the submitter. IF, on the other hand, the person isn't improving due to all the positive feedback, it is the responsibility of the honest to give them a dose of reality, so they can realize that some improvement may be necessary. It really is a disservice to consistently give good marks when they aren't as deserved as the submitter would hope. We need to be honest with each other. That is the point of the showcase. If you are submitting, prepare to have hurt feelings. That way you can be pleasantly surprised (or relieved) to know your assessment of yourself is what the public would generally feel as well. Sometimes the only way to know that is to take the risk of submitting in the C category. Each risk is just that--a risk that people won't agree with you==oh well, better luck next time. The hard part is moving on with a smile. Peace,
JC [align=left][/align]

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"Keep a smile on your face and a song in your heart!"

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I know that this wasn't a comment actually aimed AT me or anything but I thought it was important to mention that I DO listen to ALL "C" cat songs...  I MAKE time to do it, but I'm very very lucky in that respect because I get alot of time to sit in my office at work and just listen... The only ones out of those that I don't comment/rank are the ones that I know NOTHING at all about the song, and feel as though I can't make a comment without knowing that.  For example, how can I tell somebody that they are in tune, if I don't know the original tune???  I wanna stress that its actually quite rare that I don't comment on a "C" cat song... People are probably bored of seeing my face...

Much love to you all, and remember that its all about the music...

Brett xx

PS - People sub here for very different reasons, some to career build (I guess), and some not...  Thats all I have to say for now...  :hi5: