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jbrobison
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Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:57 pm |
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Joined: Fri Nov 01, 2002 10:19 pm Posts: 84 Location: Grove, OK Been Liked: 0 time
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Wow, have I seen the future of our business???
Some people I know just opened a beer bar out in a rural area in the county (read Redneck). We went out to say hello and offer our encouragement (hard to do, I'm a whiskey drinker, really don't care for beer). Imagine if you will a 40' x 60' building, concrete floors, smooth metal walls and ceiling (read no matter what you do it will sound terrible). Also imagine all of the crowd yelling, whistling & screaming on a regular basis.
Now, for the entertainment,,,,,,, the owners nephew is there with his notebook computer with 500 (wow was he proud of the number) 500 songs that he told me he had downloaded from WinMX, a Singing Machine for karaoke, a super stereo from Walmart and the complete Sweet Georgia Brown collection! They made hand written flyers and passed them around town which said to bring your own karaoke CD's and party at XXXXX, sing the songs you want to sing. Every 2 or 3 songs he would play a bump-bump boogie-boogie dance song and the floor was packed.
OK, he had a rotation of about 15-20 singers going, tip him and you sing next, everybody was happy, if you had a short skirt or low blouse you could sing 2 or 3 in a row. The place was packed, the joint was rockin', go figure.
I really enjoyed 2 people coming up to me and commenting that this was a lot more fun than the karaoke shows with all the rules, (like I run?)
Oh, I forgot to mention, he was playing for beer,,, no money.
Crowd was having fun, he was having a ball, ownwers were out nothing,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I went home and looked at thousand's of dollars of equipment and was very depressed for several days.
Sigh, Dollars & Time Wasted! If I had it to do over again,,,,,,,,,,, I wouldn't.
JB
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knightshow
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Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:35 pm |
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Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2002 2:40 am Posts: 7468 Location: Kansas City, MO Been Liked: 1 time
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jbrobison wrote: ...I went home and looked at thousand's of dollars of equipment and was very depressed for several days... JB Dude, I'm TOTALLY there with you. That's the state of things.
Trying to argue with the bar owners is yet another issue. They're HAPPY with things like that. They are only out a severe beer tab, maybe $50... and when you walk in with a $45,000 investment, professional books & sound equipment and players, a website, cordless mics... and they balk at $125-$150 a night for a contract gig????
It's enough to make you go postal!
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jbrobison
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Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 9:23 pm |
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Joined: Fri Nov 01, 2002 10:19 pm Posts: 84 Location: Grove, OK Been Liked: 0 time
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You can talk about your "I'm a professional" all you want to, perhaps our egos are as large as some of our "diva's", but the crowd was happy, the place was packed, sounded terrible but so would a good system in those conditions, and the owners were out a twelve pack.
Truth is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, why did I put out all that money for a $125 - $150 a night gig? Looks like the biggest ego was mine. (And then see someone playing to a full house for beer?).
Smile, it's a wonderful world.
JB
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karaokemeister
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Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:58 pm |
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Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 6:56 am Posts: 1373 Location: Pensacola, Florida Been Liked: 0 time
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The difference is the end goal between many of the 'pros' here and the host you mentioned. Many of us want to put on a great show and do so honestly and courteously. We buy the equipment, music, and everything else to do a professional show we can be proud of. We think we can offer a good show at a fair price - and not only be proud of it, but perhaps put a little money in our pocket. Maybe even make a living doing something we love.
I can assure you that there are bars that have shows like what you saw and they are packed. The patrons want to drink, dance, sing and have a good time. They care less about rotation, getting to sing, and lots of other things we spend time with. There are all sorts of shows, all sorts of bars, all sorts of KJ's, and all sorts of customers. If the bar owner and customers are happy with a drunk KJ spinning crap on a Wal-Mart stereo then more power to them.
I'll still keep doing my shows the way I am and keep upgrading my equipment, song list, etc. I won't take a show for beer - I do it because I like it and to support my nasty CDG habit. If I opt later to do it for a living then I can look back and say 'I did it my way!!!!' <--Frank Sinatra imitation.
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syberchick70
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Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:32 am |
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Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:38 pm Posts: 1676 Images: 3 Location: Beckley, WV Been Liked: 25 times
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karaokemeister wrote: Some make more than others. Average household income in Alaska is the highest of any state - $65,000. Cost of living is MUCH higher both directly and indirectly though. We pay up to $5 a gallon for gas, and about the same for milk in some cities. When you have to put almost everything on a plane or boat to get it here (or truck it 1500 miles through a foriegn country) things get expensive real quick. Those Little Debbie snack cakes you get a box of for $1.29 are $2.99 here. In the above discussion I was talking about gross income which is VERY different than net. I new Alaska was expensive, but I had NO idea it was THAT expensive. Whew!! karaokemeister wrote: I was also talking about a drug dealer making $60,000 a year and the risk of jail time (he was in Port St. Lucie, Florida selling crack). Yeah I no... and I in NO sense of the word mean to support the idea of selling crack.. (just clarifying there) but heck, most people around here would sell their SOUL for $60k/yr. karaokemeister wrote: I understand that. I lived in Huntsville, Alabama for a number of years and understand very well the economic depression based on geographic region. At one point I was making what I thought was ok money (in Orlando) and my friend (still in Huntsville) was making about half that amount. I have friends here in Alaska that make less than $8000 a year. They grow most of their own food and live in a small cabin 2 miles off the highway in the middle of nowhere (about an hour north of the Denali National Park entrance). He and his wife are doing very well though on that $8000 a year because they don't have any house payments, food cost is negligible, and they're extremely happy living that way. I didn't even know it was possible to grow food in Alaska... well aside from reindeer moss and conifers... heh Well, I do know you folks get warm weather, but the growing season must be awfully short! Of course, I probably have the same misconceptions most folks do about Alaska. Still, I bet you get more snow than we do!! karaokemeister wrote: This is what I'm trying to stress. Doing karaoke gigs isn't always steady work and not having a plan of action if problems arise can put yourself in a VERY precarious position. What seems like 'huge' money up front can be a real problem in April if you're not paying taxes on it. It's also not 'huge money' the first time you get sued because a speaker fell on someone and they were hurt. I'm not saying he should quit and pack up. Just to prepare for issues BEFORE they arise and protect your business investment for both yourself and your family. I did disaster response planning in IT organizations so I'm just naturally paranoid....
*nods* Well I certainly agree with you on that. Happy singing.
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Lonman
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Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:38 am |
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Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 3:57 pm Posts: 22978 Songs: 35 Images: 3 Location: Tacoma, WA Been Liked: 2126 times
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jbrobison wrote: You can talk about your "I'm a professional" all you want to, perhaps our egos are as large as some of our "diva's", but the crowd was happy, the place was packed, sounded terrible but so would a good system in those conditions, and the owners were out a twelve pack.
Truth is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, why did I put out all that money for a $125 - $150 a night gig? Looks like the biggest ego was mine. (And then see someone playing to a full house for beer?).
Smile, it's a wonderful world.
JB
You also said it was in a place that was in the midst of nowhere (that's the way I interpret "rural" area) too - right? Obviously no other place in the general vicinity. Just beer? Probably a younger crowd I would guess, maybe some older rednecks just wanting to get (@$%!) & that's their main goal. They don't give a rats a$$ if they sing or not.
Sure these kinds of places exist & you said it yourself, you get paid $125-$150 per night for your hosting skills & equipment, he has crap & is getting nothing but a hangover. Would you do a show that you're describing for a bar tab only - I think not, which is what makes us so called "pros", we WORK for our money!
_________________ LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!
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Tony
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Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 8:30 pm |
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Joined: Fri May 07, 2004 7:05 am Posts: 1383 Been Liked: 2 times
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Lonman wrote: Would you do a show that you're describing for a bar tab only I wouldn't do ANY show for a bar tab! What do I tell the supermarket when I want to pay for my shopping?
Hmmm, a loaf of bread, a pint of milk.......that's one longnek. Thank you Ma'am, and have a nice day That is funny.
NO IT'S NOT FUNNY! A**holes like that make life for me and other KJ's a hell trying to make an honest living! If the bar owner can choose between a 6-pack and $200
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Melly
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Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 8:39 pm |
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Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 12:37 am Posts: 1376 Location: COLORADO Been Liked: 0 time
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Man....that sucks!! and how stupid......because the next time he tries for something......someone.....and there is ALWAYS someone.....will say......no need to pay him......he does it for beer.....and pfffft.....down the drain he goes.
_________________
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marty3
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Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 8:46 pm |
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Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2001 5:32 am Posts: 387 Location: Chicago 'burbs USA Been Liked: 1 time
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I would think it would be very difficult to be a sole-operator living off of karaoke/bar income around here. Might be different without kid$, mortgage, car payment, insurance, etc. Typical rates are $150/night, and decreasing it seems - more lowballer multi-ops around driving it down, and as mentioned elsewhere, running bad shows and turning off many bar owners.
_________________ Sounds Great! Entertainment
Bartlett, Illinois
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Melly
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Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 8:49 pm |
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Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 12:37 am Posts: 1376 Location: COLORADO Been Liked: 0 time
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Yup......i can make enough at it for extras...after i keep my stuff in condition.....new cd's, new mics....new cords....etc.....but even here, it would be tough to make a decent living off it. Bummer too....it's great entertainment.
_________________
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knightshow
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Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:00 pm |
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Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2002 2:40 am Posts: 7468 Location: Kansas City, MO Been Liked: 1 time
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yeah, usually the people doing this have a regular job, and are doing this to suppot their alcohol habit.
VERY sad.
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Melly
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Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:14 pm |
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Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 12:37 am Posts: 1376 Location: COLORADO Been Liked: 0 time
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gee....i didn't know my tequila bottle cost that much......
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hutchdeluxe
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Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:10 pm |
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Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 11:24 am Posts: 39 Location: Oregon Been Liked: 0 time
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I decided I'm mainly doing it to revive the karaoke scene at a bar where I know the owners. Their latest KJs were getting way worse, and I decided I could watch it suck or do it myself. I already had some of the equipment, since I play a turntablist on TV...
That, and it's a great way to write off all this sound gear on my taxes. Besides, I actually enjoy doing it. If they stop paying me, I'll stick to my day job and go back to school.
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Shotgun CC
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Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:59 am |
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Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 8:59 am Posts: 1174 Location: Upstate Northeastern NY Been Liked: 0 time
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karaokemeister wrote: The difference is the end goal between many of the 'pros' here and the host you mentioned. Many of us want to put on a great show and do so honestly and courteously. We buy the equipment, music, and everything else to do a professional show we can be proud of. We think we can offer a good show at a fair price - and not only be proud of it, but perhaps put a little money in our pocket. Maybe even make a living doing something we love.
Bravo!! I think singers DO care about the quality of the music, recordings, and treatment they receive at a show. Consistency and Fairness are really important to your regular singers and we usually find that even our first timers come up to us at the end of our show and tell us how much they've enjoyed it! Oh sure, even the veteran singers will sometimes ask to do an "extra song before they leave, 'cause they can't stay 'till the end" ... but when you tell them the rotation is the rotation .... and we won't bump anyone down like we won't bump them down, they usualy smile and say ... "fair enough".
I think its very important to be PROUD of what you do ... LOVE what you do ... always do your very BEST... and set STANDARDS (price, rotations, etc...) and STICK to them. Our philosophy is... we want the club owner to be as proud of the show as we are. If we aren't on the same page... there is no bickering or nasty exchanges, we simply agree that the time has come for the show to find a new home. We don't work with contracts, yet we've never lost a show because of a disappointed club owner. They LOVE that we have top notch equipment, professional books, customer courtesy ... and all the other "little extras" we throw in to help the club have the best night it can. I've been to shows like the one described by JB ... and left ... early!!! If you go out for a night of fun and KARAOKE, you want things professional, fun and fair.
Ever notice how those that "happen" upon a show... in a pretty intoxicated state rarely are there the next week? I think there's a good reason why people return to a Karaoke show.... and why some forget that they were ever at one.
CC
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syberchick70
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Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:37 pm |
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Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:38 pm Posts: 1676 Images: 3 Location: Beckley, WV Been Liked: 25 times
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AllStar wrote: Lonman wrote: Would you do a show that you're describing for a bar tab only I wouldn't do ANY show for a bar tab! What do I tell the supermarket when I want to pay for my shopping? Hmmm, a loaf of bread, a pint of milk.......that's one longnek. Thank you Ma'am, and have a nice day That is funny. NO IT'S NOT FUNNY! A**holes like that make life for me and other KJ's a hell trying to make an honest living! If the bar owner can choose between a 6-pack and $200
I definitely wouldn't work for a 'bar tab'. I don't drink enough to make that idea even interesting. I would NEVER have more than a single wine-cooler during a show anyway! I couldn't perform if got wasted. :p
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jbrobison
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Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:57 pm |
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Joined: Fri Nov 01, 2002 10:19 pm Posts: 84 Location: Grove, OK Been Liked: 0 time
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I apologize,,,,,,, going to be a long post.
I also apologize for referring to things said in this thread by date and time, another one of my crazy hangups I guess, but I personally get tired of the light gray complete quotes of the prior post. I think if you are interested you've read them all, why repeat.
So,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, drummin22nwv gave up everything and went into the business to support his wife and 3 kids. My hat is off to you sir. I have been blessed for 23 years making my living doing something I absolutely love. I hope it works out for you.
Re Invention responded to your comment on 12/13 @ 4:19, by basicically (sp) saying "we would love to help you, but don't be pi%@# off if you don't like what we say". He was right, nobody gave you a put down, these people have been doing this for a long time, learn from their mistakes.
Allstar wrote a very good post on 12/11, he threw out some doubt, but did not rain on your parade.
Knightshow has made several posts on this thread. From what I have read perhaps he is the only one that knew what I was getting at.
I told of going to a venue, seeing really bad equipment, playing to a full crowd. The young man was playing for beer. Everyone assumed that he was a drunk, completely gone, soused. That was not the case. He was doing a good job with what he had. He was trying, doing his best.
Lonman brought up the question that this was a remote location. Once again, my apology, it is out of town (and I drove these figures to make sure I'm right) it's 1.3 miles from the VFW that has bands once in a while, and karaoke when I play there, 1.4 Miles from the Elks Lodge, which has live bands and their own karaoke system operated by volunteers, 7,000+ individual songs, 2.7 miles from the Moose lodge, ballrooom with bands, game room with karaoke, 5,000+ Individual Songs played by volunteers. 4.7 Miles from a beer bar, had the same couple playing karaoke there for 6-7 years. This bar used to be open 7 days a week, now it's open 3. they used to do karaoke Fri, Sat, Sun, now they just do Fri & Sat. The bar is for sale, they are having trouble covering overhead. (The karaoke couple make $125 per night).
Let's switch gears,,, forget each one of you, I'm talking about myself.....................................
I have realized that I have made a bad business decision. I was/am completely blown away by karaoke. I saw what I thought was the flaw with many KJ's and thought I could do better. I spent A LOT of money and countless hours of time and worked on being the best. I tried, I run a good show, most people in the area consider me the expert, I am what they judge others by. I love it & I live it.
But I feel now that I was wrong.
Read very close...........................
None of us here (hopefully) would play for beer.
But I finally realized that some people will. With todays computers, the downloads, everybody owning their own disc?????????????????????? Why in the world did I spend so much money and time??? Once again, not talking about you, I'm talking about me.
I wouldn't play for beer,,,,,,,,,,,, there are many that will. I'm sticking to my ethics, they don't care. I won't be bribed, I won't bend the rules, they can and do, and get tipped for it (probably take home more tips than I get pait!).
I never implied that any of you would play for beer. But guess what, you're going to have to compete with those that do.
Do I/You have a better show? Lord, I hope so. BUT, take my family, friends & regulars out of the picture and guess what folks, the rest of the crowd could care less as long as they are having a good time.
Whew, told ya it was going to be long, I'm going to stop writing but so many things left unsaid.
drummin22nwv, don't ever be offended by what these people say, they have been there, done that, and if you really want to learn they can save you a lot of heartache (and a lot of money!).
My point is and has always been,,,,,,,,,,,,,, when I started my CDG collection (read addiction) I never dreamed it would get this out of hand. Now people with hardly any investment, bad equipment, books that look like they were made by my 4 year old Grandson, are playing to a full house for beer.
$35,000 - $40,000 Plus experience Plus talent for $125 - $150 a night, BAD BUSINESS on my part. (What was I drinkin')
Now, I'm saving up my money to go to the Northwest to go sing with the Lonman & Knightshow. Hahahahahahahahaha, I'll just show up one night, be a new person, sing a couple,,, then introduce myself AFTER the last song is sang, and invite you to breakfast, my treat.
I know I come across as negative, but I love ya all!
JB
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karaokemeister
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Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:39 am |
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Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 6:56 am Posts: 1373 Location: Pensacola, Florida Been Liked: 0 time
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jbrobison, I understand your frustration. I used to work for a technical training company (first as a technical trainer) and then later as a salesperson. We had 1 rule - we won't loose business based on price alone. We would be anyone's price for a comparable service. It sucked as a commission salesperson but we did it to get the business.
The issue is we were talking comparable services. The problem is that you now have a huge investment of time and money and should be compensated appropriately for that investment and the services you provide using it.
We have two different people causing problems you're mentioning:
The bar owners trying to save a dollar or two by hiring a cheaper show (KJ/DJ) thinking they'll maintain the same advantage they have with the more 'expensive' DJ/KJ and the KJ/DJ who's cutting corners in the initial investment because technology lets them.
With the war on drugs, er, terrorism, er, drugs causing terrorism, and the lack of the karaoke companies to pursue the multi-riggers and others it's not likely going to change soon. Unfortunate, but true. I can charge less for a show if I don't have to pay for my 25,000 songs and you paid $10,000 or more.
Don't get me wrong. I have a lot of respect for those that can make a good living doing DJ/KJ work - I choose to do the best I can and do it as a sideline because I know how fickle the business can be and I still have a LOT to learn.
As for my 'regular' show (during the summer)? It's about as remote as you can get. It's in a town of 1000 people (Healy, Alaska), 10 miles from another 1000 or so (at Denali National Park), next closest town is more than 30 miles away (Cantwell, Alaska) and the only other bar in the area is across the street without any entertainment. We bus in the people in for the show and sometimes we have 25 people and sometimes we have more than 200. I'm hoping some of that changes this summer with a new bar opening back up that I'll likely be playing so we don't have to bus in everyone (they can walk there or take the local shuttle). Even so, I charge appropriately, take pride in my equipment, my selection, and the quality of my show. If I'm lucky I'll not only be playing for tour groups coming through the hotels, but at a few other bars this summer as well. I'll have competition, but they play by the same rules - buy your own music and try to put on a good, enjoyable, and fair show.
All in all we either continue to play the game or we don't just like we can choose to follow the rules or not.... Maybe one day I'll join you in the lower northwest at one of those shows when I get fed up as well.
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syberchick70
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Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:16 am |
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Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:38 pm Posts: 1676 Images: 3 Location: Beckley, WV Been Liked: 25 times
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jbrobison wrote: I personally get tired of the light gray complete quotes of the prior post. I think if you are interested you've read them all, why repeat. No problem with the way you did it. I do it this way to show relevance to the post I am making. Otherwise, one can reply to something way up in the thread somewhere and folks won't know what you're talking about. I generally don't quote 'entire' posts, unless they're short and I'm replying to the entire post. Sometimes intent doesn't come across very well in print, so let me clarify... I'm not trying to be hostile by pointing out why I quote. Just explaining myself. jbrobison wrote: Now people with hardly any investment, bad equipment, books that look like they were made by my 4 year old Grandson, are playing to a full house for beer.
Now my question has almost nothing to do with your post, but I just have to ask. I keep seeing references to 'nicely done' books and 'poorly done' books. I'm in a band. I haven't been to very many karaoke shows. What is a 'good' book? How good can a karaoke book be? Most of the ones I've seen are plastic sleeves with songs lists (either by title or artist... or both) in some sort of ring binder notebook. We have recently gotten together karaoke equipment in anticipation of doing some local shows and that is the kind of book we created (I used excel as my database). Would that be considered a 'nice' book? If not, are there any examples online one could look at?
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jbrobison
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Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:16 am |
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Joined: Fri Nov 01, 2002 10:19 pm Posts: 84 Location: Grove, OK Been Liked: 0 time
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Good question about the books...
Do a search and you'll probably find quite a few threads about books, what qualifies to be a "good book" is really a personal preference but I believe that most people here would agree with the following.
1) songs listed by title & artist.
2) songs listed in ORDER.
Here is where it gets to be the pits. Some KJ's make out their original list (book) then add pages to it, thats ok to add a few updates. This becomes a problem when they have been adding pages forever without reprinting the main book. If you want to look up a certain song where do you look? So you sit there all evening flipping through the book. I recently looked at a book where typed and hand written pages had been added as well as copies of the CDG cover. All put into plastic sleeves and stuck in the book in no particular order.
There comes a point when the books need to be reprinted, what good is having the songs if you can't find them.
3) Duplicates... Listing all of the songs including duplicates has been debated on all of the karaoke boards since there were karaoke boards. I don't think there is a right or wrong way, do what makes you happy. I do not list dupe's, my personal preference. If someone is looking for a particular version of a song I can look it up on the computer and am more than happy to play their version.
Once again it's not right or wrong but,,, If I looked at a book where the KJ had listed all of their dupe's and beside each song there was a description or code where you can tell whether it is a Sound Choice, Chartbuster, PHM, etc, I think that is cool. The KJ went to a lot of work, nice book. However if I look at a book and see Crazy by Pasty listed 57 times with just a non descriptive numbering system, I don't care for the book. It's like playing Russian Roulette, Pick a number, which version are you going to get? Sound Choice or Nutech or Legends???
JB
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