Karaoke Forums

I have never been replaced by a pirate... But I have been affected by Pirate pricing!

I come into a gig and the owner tells me that he doesn't like the KJ he has and wants to replace him. When I ask why (surprise) he doesn't bring a crowd.

So I lay out a basic strategy for how I plan to promote his business, and tell him that my fee is $150 for a standard gig night.

He tells me the guy I am replacing was getting only $50 and worked 2x the time. I laughed at him and said told him that he should keep his guy, there is no way I was working for that little. Then walked right out the door.

Passed by the other day, he was there, with zero people in the bar.

You get what you pay for.

So who's been replaced by someone who wasn't a pirate? It's interesting that on this forum the prevailing opinion is that only a pirate can undercut you or take your gig and that's far from true. There will always be someone who is willing to be the cheapest in the market. My company does 55 regular gigs each week in 2 states (consisting of trivia and other various game shows). Every week someone is soliciting my owners and venues to replace us, sometimes it's a karaoke guy. It's the nature of this business. You're only as good as the numbers you pulled in the previous week (or month). If you're part-time, which means you cannot support your family doing this, you are not a business, you are working at a hobby. I also think venue owners look at it that way in many cases, you're not a business, you're a guy (or gal) working for part-time money and they have no problem replacing you if a better deal comes along. So how do you insulate yourself against that?

If the trademark suits do indeed produce a level playing field, there will still be folks trying to take your gigs, whether it be by undercutting your price or other drama-inducing methods. If you have a complete legal library and charge $150 for 4 hours, another KJ. also with a legal library, will come along and offer to do 4 hours for $140 or 5 hours for $150. Then what?

You have a good point on this, just because someone undercuts you, doesn't mean they are pirates.

However, I think when a legal host spends a lot of money on their collection, plus things like audits or license fees and other expenses, you will find them hard pressed to go cheap unless they are in a pinch or just doing it for fun (do people still do that?)

So who is a bigger threat to your gigs? A KJ with pirated content or a KJ with a legal library doing gigs for fun and socialization? Both are likely to take less money for their services, and actually, the hobby KJ is more likely to replace you because he too can tout a legal library to the venue as a selling point. I have two hosts who work for me who are early retirees, still in good physical and mental shape but don't want to sit home and languish. Neither one needs the money I pay them but just like to work as a trivia host and enjoy the nightly social aspect of the job. There are certainly folks who think of karaoke hosting the same way.

I replaced the same guy at two different venues. Now he comes to my Tuesday show to sing, and wants to sell me his system. I replaced him, almost two years ago at my weekend place, where he only had Fridays, and now I have Thursday thru Saturdays, plus a Saturday afternoon family show that my girlfriend runs, and 14 months ago at my Tuesday show, which I have been told has tripled the take since I took over.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

I replaced a guy that was a pirate. I would be considered a hobbyist but I still got 150 per weekend night and 100 for a seasonal weeknight show. They dropped Karaoke for a while after I informed the owner of the lawsuits. I provided him with a document that said I purchased all my material and he was free to check at any time. he decided it was too much hassle and dropped us. They picked Karaoke back up after six months or so and the guy is a pirate. He does a darned good job running the show.

I said hard pressed, I didn't mean it's impossible, hence why I say I think they would charge more for spending a lot of money on things.



That just sucks. Sorry to hear your bar didn't have your back. As for the pirate, reporting him or not is most likely up to you, but I don;t have sympathy for them and hopefully he gets to face the music as well.

I have replaced pirates as well. I have never lost a gig to a pirate or an undercutter.

What rickgood states is absolutely accurate. When I started out (2010), it was as a favor to a friend that managed a bar. It was supposed to be 6-8 weeks until they found someone else. I was very much a hobbyist.

I didn't replace anyone, but I certainly wasn't promoting fair pricing in the industry. I charged $75 a night. I had no idea what the normal rate even was at that time.

It wasn't until I was several months into chewing up every Saturday night that I started doing my homework and realized I was getting paid 1/2 of what I should be getting. I ultimately left that venue because they would not bring the rates up to even $150/night. Now that same venue pays me $200/night for 2 nights a week.

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-Chris

Thank you for writing that. That's one of those pet peeves of mine, which I have stated many times before in this forum. Pirates are NOT the ONLY under-cutters around in this business. And also, some Pirates have better shows (in all aspects from sound to selection to crowds) than some Legit Kjs ("SC Legal" (and soon to be "CB Legal") libraries).

Edit... I noticed I left out the word "NOT" in my original statement about Pirates. Corrected now.

i have been replaced by several pirates, but it was mostly due to bad business/marketing skills.

There was one incident that still rubs me the wrong way that i've posted about before.

I was talking to this one bar about karaoke and they said they might be interested, but wanted to wait until the fall, and asked me to call back in September. So i took them at their word. i had mentioned to this other *pirate* kj that i'd been soliciting this bar *didn't even know about the place until i'd mentioned it* and then in August... what do you know they went and hired him for two nights a week.

I continue to be in a head to head battle with a pirate right across the parking lot both Fri and Sat.

I'm winning by a mile. Lol. Just had my highest singer count ever a couple of weeks ago

This is not 100% pirate related but more to the pricing out there.
I recently met with the owner of a local bar (sorta new, been open about a year).
they have a solid Fri/Sat night with live music, paying the bands between 200-400 depending on the band.
The owner was complaining that he needed a weeknight so I put together a 1 month proposal for building up a Thursday night.
Just FYI I normally try to charge the following for a bar due to repeat business:
Weeknight: 200
Fri: 250.00
Sat: 350.00
Weddings are 700.00 entry level firm and up to 1000.00
We bring a great show, Bose L1 system, good mics, legal music, legal videos. wirelessly tie into the bar TV and bring a 32" monitor that is mounted behind us in addition to the small karaoke screen.
So, all I am saying is it is a good show. If you put people in front of it you can build a good night up.

So....I lay out the following:
for 4 weeks invest 225..00 per night - 900.00 total BUT - spend it like this:
buy 1000 nice full color 1/4 page flyer (which I will design and provide) at a cost of about 100.00.
spend 75.00 per week in newspaper ads (both our "local flashes" and a package that can target by zip code.
The exit he is off of has about 2000 hotel rooms, go to every hotel and make sure they have your flyers and invite their desk people in for dinner.
Make sure that EVERY person that leaves your bar on Fri/Sat has a flyer about the Thursday night.
Make sure that his facebook is updated every week.
IF he would do that then I would provide my services for 50.00 per night for the first 4 weeks, then IF it was built up bump up to 150.00 until the night could afford the full 200.00.
So a total of a 900.00 investment, 1000 flyers, newspaper adverts. etc.
His exact words?
That's Fu*cking crazy talk, I will give you 75.00 a night instead of the 50.00 your asking for but I won't do any of the other.
WTH?

Am I missing something or did I not offer this guy a solid plan?

https://www.facebook.com/Phantasy-Produ ... 035995830/

Joe

Wow! Quite overwhelming to say the least. Sell yourself, but keep things simple. What you did was a real turn off.

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Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.

That is a bit much. Bar owners don't want to advertise. They don't even care about karaoke.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

Regardless of your expectations (with regard to what you "try to charge"), it's obvious that this guy is not willing to pay you anything near your regular prices. I'm surprised that he was even willing to offer you $75 (with no chance of an increase ever (from the sounds of his response)) after you had just offered to do a show for $50.

I agree with Alan that you may have tried to oversell yourself and you put more demands upon the bar then the owner felt it was worth.

You'd be surprised how many DON'T want to advertise because ASCAP and the rest come knockin. I worked in a couple over the years.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

jruder - I agree with you. The owner is crazy. That is exactly the kind of deals I would offer when I first started out. I would take a reduced wage in exchange for them promoting THEIR OWN VENUE and my karaoke show. It seemed to me that very few owners wanted to do the extra work. They wanted ME to do all the promotion for karaoke as well as the bar.

So I started flipping it on them.....I started selling them a karaoke show and my marketing services.

I RAISED my rates and justified it by selling them on promoting the bar not just for karaoke but for other events. Something I used to do for free before, but now get paid for.

I have one venue right now where we have been tweaking this formula for about a year now. We are close to locking down a deal for me to get paid $250 for weeknights and $350 for weekends. I will be supplementing their FB, Twitter, Instagram presence and managing a print ad campaign for them. I will provide posters (that I print at home myself), vinyl banners and other marketing materials for them.

Relatively little extra work for me but a lot of extra revenue.

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-Chris

Smoothe, that is my take on karaoke in my area as well. If I can bring in an adequate crowd completely on my own they are happy, but if things start slipping in sales then suddenly "we might have to cut karaoke if it doesn't pick up next week".

The problem is, this is Florida. If it RAINS they stay home. When the beer prices increase, they stay home and piss and moan for a couple of weeks. If there is a concert, or a country fair, everyone goes. Bike week hits, everyone goes to Daytona. If Tony Accardi has a House party, everyone from Bradenton to Port Charlotte goes there. If the Gashouse Gorillas are playing ANYWHERE, guess where everyone goes!!

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

And the same thing happens here. People expect the karaoke to always be there. So when you get a slow weekend, the ownership cries and says cutting karaoke may happen.

I remember the first time they told me that, and I was kinda worried. After that, i scoffed it off and started telling them "thats ok, ill find other work" Ended up keeping that job for 3 years before i left and went elsewhere.

Poor management is what kills the income...