Karaoke Forums

Bill,  I started a thread on this.  A speech pathologist singer told me two years ago that it's often tougher for musicians that play instruments to catch onto singing and feel comfortable.  My instruments played are all external instruments, my voice is me.. and I feel exposed.. I also can't apply my musicianship to my singing because short of timing and tempo timbre, projection, and what I sound like can't be heard by me..  When I sing there's vibrating going on, not just sound, it vibration produced before it's projected, and my ear positioning makes it tough to know what it sounds like.. and psychologically as Vicki and others mentioned there IS a tendency for us to often dislike our own voice..Why, I don't know.. probably same as when we see ourselves naked... Self consciousness ? (thats a guess) Similarly many great actors can't watch themselves act.. THey don't like what they see.

It's a very different process, but I don't recall details..  As an instrumentalist musician I can play my instruments without directly exposing myself.  But when I sing I'm letting something in me..out.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Yeah I know I used to dislike my voice particularly when I was talking. It always sounded somewhat nasal and mid range like I was a bit stuffed up - which I probably was considering my allergies. I used to hate it, but I guess I kind of got used to it because I listen to myself on videotape during storm chases all the time now. I've gotten used to it. I used to not like hearing my voice singing either, and back then I wasn't very good either, but I've improved (I can hear that), and while sometimes it still bugs me it no longer does as much anymore.

If it bugs you and you don't like it you still just have to 'bite the bullet' and get over it. Obviously that is the solution otherwise you can never sing if you don't open up, practice and attempt it. It may not be easy, but you have to make yourself make the effort.

I'll also say as you practice and improve, and eventually get used to hearing yourself - perhaps after a year or so then it may not bother you so much.

Can anybody and everybody sing and sing good? I don't know.  :dontknow: I think that most anybody can find a song or two that they can sing kind of well. Start off with something easy, that you like, that is within your vocal range without too many difficult parts. It is essential you know a song well in your head IMO if you are attempting an accurate cover, and an accurate vocal reconstruction. I forget what all I started with. I know one song was 'Margaritaville'. I happen to have a new copy of it in Showcase. Not sure if 'Margaritaville' is that easy, but it's just one I started singing first at karaoke thinking it wasn't too bad, and seems I didn't usually screw it up too bad. One of my problems is there is probably tons of songs and styles I could sing easily and do a good job at but I just don't find those songs intriguing. I oftentimes go for songs I can't quite pull off, or maybe just barely make it. You can probably find some examples of that on SS. The other day I subbed 'Dare You To Move' by Switchfoot and immediately took it down because it just wasn't ready for primetime - even though I really wanted to sub it. I finally just told myself I was crazy because most people on SS (well many) only sub their best stuff. I often put technically mediocre stuff up there, and I really have to watch myself and do a good review of a song before I sub it. Sometimes right after you sing it and for some time (like that day) you can't hear your mistakes. You have to step back and listen to it later with a fresh attitude and clean ears so to speak.

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The Truth Is Out There

EXACTLY where I'm at Bill..  But I don't wish to develop a preference for blocked up nasal singing quality.  We can learn to get used to just about anything, but I'd assume get used to singing in a style I find aethetically pleasing, and this isn't so easy.. I sound congested when I sing, (as does Elvis costello),  I won't sing if that's what I sound like..  Instead I'll use Afrin prior to singing.  I can't STAND that Greenday singer.. Assuming somebody told me I had a great voice to nail Greenday covers I'd crawl under my bed and stay there for life !

If singing means making noise and enjoying myself, I'll do it in private.. I'd LOVE to learn to produce quality singing (just as many KJ's wish to produce quality Karaoke).. Their emphasis is on Karaoke,  Mine Singing and "Musical quality", not fun..  I'll be working more seriously in the near future with a coach, coaches.. to find if realistically I CAN sing.. Regarding "What is singing" ?  Well to me it is quite specific.  It's something that fits quite tastefully into my classic rock, and R&B upbringing, nothing less.

I WANT TO LEARN TO SING.  Not JUST do "Karaoke".. THere's a HUGE difference, but some just don't get it   I CAN do Karaoke, I have been doing it.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

It amazes me how much your feelings of your singing abilities match my feelings of my own. I'm NOT looking for sympathy or for people to rush in and fluff me.. I just think it's weird how similar we think about this particular thing.

It's not that I think I'm AWFUL, I think I'm better than 'average', but I'm not GOOD ENOUGH to make me happy, not even close. I listen to my voice played back and think 'meh...'. =p And it breaks my heart.

Seby,  I think it has to do with the fact that we are artistic and sensitive people that have a REALISTIC general idea of our ability in a certain area having been around artists and other musicians much of our lives, we pretty much have known where we stood in terms of singing ability for over half of our lives.  Assuming we were singers, we'd be singing and NOT feeling this way. I have total confidence as an instrument player IN THE AREAS I can play, and similarly I know I have allowed myself to become rusty and fall out've category of performing artist. We understand and were brought up with different performing values that existed pre-karaoke.  We know where we stand, and we admit we likely haven't been born with a natural gift or headstart enabling us to have an easy time by having the God Given Singing timbre, and physical makeup that enables us to sing easily.. We know we COULD sing, but not as we'd like to.  That's what breaks my heart..  I don't have the incentive to pour LOADS of work into an area if results can't be achieved in a style or timbre I really like. Where would the enjoyment be if I sing Boston songs like Irkle ?    I know what I like,  I know how what I like sounds,  and while it's tough to hear my own voice, I know I DO NOT sould like Brad Delp, or a rock tenor,  it doesn't sound like him when I play back my voice, yet assuming I never analysed the timbre of my own voice, JUST based on performing the song without hearing it carefully, I'd not know this.  It's tricky. So I might not sound as BAD as I believe I do, but I don't sound like what I like either.  That's essentially it in a nutshell..  Those of us that are musicians, and have a clue KNOW singing is more than "just karaoke".  It's an artform, an aesthetic form.. and whether people know it or not.. They either sound Good, So-so, or bad.  Prior to performing I believe I should at least sound so-so to good to the ears of the most sensitive listener.  Since I judge ability (not the person of course however their ability) since I can't help it, and realistically I KNOW people are judging us whether we admit it or not in the showcase.. I'm going to maintain a realist approach to an aesthetic form. How can we not ?   We know what we do and do not like the sound of.  We have rolel models of sorts.. and I DO NOT sound anywhere near my role models. (too lazy to use spellcheck, I'm laying down with this dang notebook system balanced on my chest and don't remember if it's roll or role, but anyway)

I don't want sympathy either,  and like you.. I want to be called an HONEST 3 and earn what I might or might not achieve. That's the reward as a person who has a foundation and respect for the arts. Nothing more insulting than an adult getting kudos and gold stars just because they played in the big league with the expertise of a special person entering that belongs in the handicap olympics instead, now what's worse is those that don't know they really are WAY out've their league but competing with the true 8's as a 2 rank singer.. OUCH.. There are true 8 average singers in the showcase,  How insulting if people give me a 9 when I sound like one of Jerry's kids singing but still emotionally thinking I'm fabulous because friends have lied to me.. if I am realistically a 3 or 4, I can have fun existing among 8's..while knowing my own place, to me that's part of being an adult, you work and play within your means. When I play or enter anything new, I want to establish a TRUE foundation I can grow on. especially WHEN performing songs I LIKE to sing.  Either I'm a singer,  show potential, or it's stupid for me to showcase that which I can't do at this point, while having people tell me how I "added a new dimension to a song they already thought they heard performed as interesting as it can be performed". (actually that's a pretty good way of telling someone they suck)..HAHAHHA  I have been trying, and I am willing to work at being a singer assuming I stand a chance at enjoying how I sing given what I was  cursed (or maybe blessed but I SERIOUSLY doubt it)..    I'm a realist in this area, although not in many other areas of my life.. I need to repreive behind some element of denial, as do many currently in the showcase (yet I won't use an artistic display to do it)

Not all are musicians,  Fortuneately I am.. But that DOES NOT mean I can Do it all.. Singing is one of those instruments that's as tough as frenchhorn, the larger brass instruments, the double-reeds and to be any good percussion..  We can't do it all. I've accepted that, I'm more talented than most in terms of where I've made it to in music in my life (as a has been gigging musician), and NOW I want to sing, however I know a few things.. Rank, Critique, or not.. While young decent rock musicians only in certain cases allowed me in front of a microphone in a paid working setting, To me that's QUITE the HONEST critique of my ability, and I'll take heed to that.. If I can sing (because our voices change as we age) I will, currently I still don't know, I'm almost embarassed to sing in front of a singing teacher now.. This might be the first time in music I'm told "Don't even try...Stick to what you can do and write this area off".. Well it wouldn't be the first time.. But I refuse to give up....I have every right to love doing something I suck at in private, and I don't want to make a total butt out've myself in an international forum assuming what I havea decent idea about.. I really could care less if people insist "Singers Showcase" is just Karaoke.. Because when I GO into Singers SHowcase, I don't even listen to the backing, I go to hear "The Singer".  As I've stated,  my self-deprecating humor has it's boundaries.. I love music, to me it's only to be displayed when performance ready and today in my life NOTHING is ready to be showcased except my blathering fonts.. and thoughts...I know my singing hunch is correct, similarly I'm sure you have an idea that singing will take work, and for that reason, you accept critique and don't like BS.. But know when you're being lied to.

Yep,  We think alike.. We've both spent a good portion of our life in areas of aesthetics surrounded by artists. We were brought up with artistic and performance ethics and while I LOVE karaoke for MY OWN training attempts.. What many do with Karaoke is blasphemous to how we were brought up to believe.

MANY are excellent singers, ALL should feel free to submit to the showcase, All (as adults) I'd hope would have some concept of their ability level that's grounded in something realistic, but the fact that this isn't the case is a blessing in disquise for some.. It enables them to enjoy Karaoke believing they are 8 or 9 rank singers although they sound like a moose fart (well some of the guys sound pretty nasty too)

At anyrate, they are having fun, and their friends still love them so NOTHING more matters.  I believe I have a responsibility to be more aware of areas of aesthetics and my ranking in them.  To me "smart" means nothing more at times than having a pretty good idea of what we don't really know..  In my case I don't know ALOT about MANY areas of music, so I listen to those that are more gifted than myself and try to learn from them.. IE... OK What Now, Operakitty, Nathan, Jazzybags, Gilly and the list goes on.  I'm nothing special, and I know it.. and like you, I have opinions and love to sqwaulk about them !!


While most can play chopsticks few can play the piano.. Similarly, to get the human voice to sound like a decent musical instrument playing a lead part it's NOT easy, or God given for most.. MY OWN feelings are that Karaoke is great for all AS LONG as it doesn't attempt to minimise the importance of WHY a person that wishes to sing and consider themselves a respectable stage act must work hard at being a singer !
What scares me is dishonesty and adults not having a clue where they actually stand in an artistic area while up on stage thinking and acting the part of Gods gift to the music area while belting something out in an absolutely odious fashion disgusting those that love the song they think they can perform. Something just seems wrong about that..

I have the utmost respect for singers, they are truly talented musicians assuming they can sing well.  The human voice isn't an easy instrument to perform on.. For this reason I wish to see dignity remain in term "Singer".  Sure it can just be Karaoke,  but I feel even THOSE individuals should respect the stage, performing arts etiquette, their audience, and the fact that to be a singer is hard work.. Not just standing in front of a microphone drunk

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I heard a saying once that "pianists are frustrated singers"!  I play the piano also.  I love both playing AND singing. (But I can't do both at the same time--some people make that look sooooooo easy, but I'd rather just concentrate on one or the other.)  Sometimes I'd rather play; sometimes I'd rather sing.  My voice isn't bad IMHO--I used to really hate my voice until I had voice lessons about 10 years ago.  When I could listen to myself on tape without gagging, I knew I'd made progress.    But there are a lot more songs that I can play than there are ones that I can sing.  That's partly because I studied the piano (and organ for a while) longer than I studied voice.  So I play better than I sing.  But I love doing both.

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I love being a mom!

Considering my age when I started, singing wasn't even an option.  Nor was talking.

Organ is VERY tough for me too btw.. I mean to really play it as an organ, I'm a very good "rock organist" (but how many aren't? ).. I have a B-3 setup, and a Steinway BG.. I never really got used to playing anything but weighted action.  Playing organ is tough when you're a pianist used to hammer action.. Not to mention the two octave pedals on the Hammond, drawbars, presets, leslie useage, and others stuff you need an extra hand for.. Not two mention playing on more than one manual. HEHEHE... I prefer piano, it's more me...

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Wow... I can't believe I missed this post. I came back to this thread and basically saw the next page, thinking you didn't respond.

You pretty much fleshed out the way I feel about my singing. As you say, I've heard and actually been around really GOOD singers, so unfortunately I have something other than the radio, to compare myself to.

JVJ has been trying to encourage me to sing more (like, into a microphone, not just to the baby... ). One of the things he tells me sometimes, like today, as a means of 'encouragement', is "Well Seby, you can sound pretty good on some things, not so good on others. You just have to sing what you sound good on". Somehow, that isn't much of a comfort to me.

I'm not satisfied with being 'passable'. It's not good enough for me that people generally don't run away when I sing, I want them to actually ENJOY it, and not just because they LIKE me, or think I'm cute, or want something from me. In my opinion, you DON'T GET 'points for trying' in singing, or 'an A for Effort!'. And I don't expect them for myself either.

Like you, I'm not saying this stuff for sympathy (though I suppose we all secretly wish someone would come in and tell us, brimming with honesty, how much they enjoy our singing... ). In fact, the ONLY thing that continues to give me any amount of hope as a singer, even at my age which is probably ridiculous, is the fact that SOME people have started out as mediocre singers and become really good with a lot of work. Unfortunately, at this point I don't think that's going to happen for me, but I retain a spark of hope. I like to think that I DO learn things about singing here, and that I have improved in various ways since I started posting songs in the SS. It's rough though, very very hard on me since I'm so self critical.



Totally....



One thing that I have found helps, is to go back and listen to a recording of my singing weeks, or even months later. It gives better perspective. Sometimes, as I said earlier, I will realize that I sound considerably better (or worse) than I originally thought. It's easier if you can approach it as if hearing SOMEONE ELSE, trying not to think of it as hearing yourself... because in my experience, you will never really sound the way you think you do.



Actually... the voice is a much harder instrument than the frenchhorn imo, because with a true instrument, you KNOW that if you do the right things, adjust it correctly, place your fingers properly, have the right ambature (spelling?), etc, you will be able to make a decent noise on it. Not true with the human voice.

Theoretically, a person CAN 'learn' to do things to make their voice sound appealing when they sing. I've heard about it happening, I like to believe I've made improvements in my own attempts and even, on the rare occasion, broken through into something that approaches GOOD. Whether it's realistic to ever believe that I could consistently become good enough to be a confident singer, I don't know. As I said, I like to have hope... but I'm a bit of a pessimist.

And now I have to wrap it up because my teething son has awoke and is starting to wail, with a voice I hope will someday prove far better than my own. Until next time...

First of all Bill- thanks for starting this thread- and I guess after reading what you initially wanted to know we have digressed quite a bit. Some suggestions that could help with that are: well the first you already know- gender benders will force you to do your own thing. As long as you don't have to change the pitch more than 3 half steps in either direction. More than that UP and you're gonna have the chipmunks singing background for you and all the instruments will sound wierd. DOWN more than 3 half steps and you're gonna have Barry White singing back up and sounding like he;'s underwater. If the track falls out of the 7 half step range I just described- ya probably need to locate an arrangement in a different key. ( Sinatra songs do this to me- not a single one works!)

The second thing- if there is a song you like - runs web searches and see if there are more than one karaoke version available. I love the song "What you won't do for love" and have 7 or 8 diff singers covering it. I found 3 different karaoke arrangements. One "I think" is still in my sub list- it's s pop version in the style of Go west- after I added my R&B vocal it was a different animal. The one my my web site is the Bobby Caldwell traditional version. I like both and use them in different setting. But especially if many people have covered it- you may have choices in arrangements. Choose he one that is closest to what YOU had in mind.  So check out some songs you like you may be surprised by the different arrangements available (BTW- I also have NINE karaoke versions of "over the rainbow"all by different artists )

The last thing is there are some software apps out there that allow you do not only change pitch- but timing as well. Many times just altering the speed of a song will allow you to make changes to it to suit your style. Audacity is a free app that you could try go to http://audacity.sourceforge dot net and it will give you different downloads for whatever OS your computer has. There is both a pitch changer and a speed changer. Might be fun for you to try!

But the bottom line is that you have a point- we are having a similar discussion over in the "is it really your voice thread" but essentially what I said there was that a cover singer who imitates the original is always going to be in the shadow of the original...if you make a song your own- you will make more of an impact--if you can surprise people they will remember you. You really don't need a completely different "Track" to do that- what you need is an understanding of who you are vocally. Check out my R&B version of desperado and you'll see what I mean- I did it using the Clint Black arrangement. I really thought I would catch flack for taking a song everyone knew one way- and using the same track- give it a completely different twist. I was shocked at the positive reception that song had gotten. You just need to listen to songs and see if you can hear an alternate version in your head. I would also advise against trying to do this with song you already know like the back of your hand. If you don't have the original set like stone in your head- you will be more likely to make alterations that will "make it yours" I do that all the time- I get the basic melody in my head then put the original away and start playing with the written lyrics while listening to the track. Some interesting things have happened that way. Sometimes you'll get frustrated and give the song up- that measn that song didn't resonate with you- but others will just fall into place and you will be very proud of them when you are done.

Now for you Kappy

Kappy there are several things you can do to improve a nasal sound- Most of them there is no way I could explain in writing something you need to hear. But I also agree with Vik about the best thing being recording yourself - I still despise my speaking voice- But I have learned to listen objectively to my singing voice( I used to hate IT too) There is a difference is the way you THINK you are sounding and the way you actually DO sound. You have to come to peace with that difference before you'll ever be alble to listen to yourself without wincing. My advice it to start subbing- you know people are gonna fluff the hell out of you( wink)  :dancin: But the most important thing is you'll be able to get used to hearing yourself...and fluff or no you WILL build up confidence.** I** promise to be tactful in my suggestions and will give you both sides of the coin. No one is going to rip you to shreds. Thats not what this site is about. Don't take it so seriously.loosen up and have fun...remember this is a karaoke site- not an execution.  :whistle: It's all about singing...and there will always be people who don't like the way you sound( most will ignore you if that is the case)but for each of those - there will be someone else who LOVES your voice. The 2 professional singers you mentions are classic examples of that Elvis Costello and Greenday- you hate them- but someone likes them of they wouldn't be a commercial success. Don't be so hard on yourself. if you are a musician then you have an ear...you won't be "hopeless" in any event. Give it a try!

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And another suggestion on the key change issue... sometimes you can keep the sond within the acceptable parameters and just sing an octave above or below where the vocal line would normally be.



I totally second that... heck, go look at my subs!!! I sincerely doubt you are any worse of a singer than I am, and I'm fluffed all over the place, despite being a meanie. If that won't motivate you, nothing will  LMAO

OH Steven........KAPPY!!!!!! where the heck are you??? You gonna respond to this open challenge or what???  :whistle:  LMAO


and the answer will be

found out in a later post I guess!  :dancin:

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I am not a professional singer so I humbly give my opinion.   I made a simple discovery many moons ago.  If I don't like something about my voice, there is someone out there who will help me change it - some for a very reasonable price.  I have always had a good voice, but I hated my vibrato, and mostly the fact that my vibrato was worse when I sang in front of people (oh good, wasn't that the point of singing - to sing in front of people?).  I went to my community college and took a class called Class Voice.  This was a group class where folks of varying talent and reasons for being in the class would meet once a week and be taught to sing better.  What could be simpler?  

Our text books showed what our voices were made of and how they worked best.  The instructor would look at you singing and help you work on your outward quirks.  I learned to breath correctly and rely on my technique.  That alone was worth the price of the class.  I learned all kinds of tips to fool my head into believing the high note I was dreading wasn't high at all and the same on a low note - kind of like swinging the heavy bat.  I learned just from watching others learn about themselves.  I learned how and where to put my stress, so my jaw unclenched and it relaxed my vibrato.  A miracle?  Nope, just education.    

Kappy/Seby, there were folks there who only joined because they needed another music performance class for a degree - and they initially couldn't sing a note.  At the end of the semester they could sing well enough to get through a song and have people know what they were singing.  That's obviously way below what your level is. These classes are similar in every community college.  It's a few simple weeks out of your life.  What can it hurt?

I would L-O-V-E to take such a class. Even if it were offered locally though, I sincerely doubt I could afford it. Perhaps someday.

That's where I think you need to look into your evening classes (which is when these are usually offered).  Our community colleges are priced pretty much the same as others around the country, with one credit being about $40 or so.  Go on the internet and look up the night class offerings and see how much it costs.  I'll bet it's not as bad as you think.

I looked.. our local college cum 'university' does offer an 'Applied Voice' class.

Prices:

http://www.mountainstate.edu/prospective/cost.aspx

Yuh, I actually called Admissions and had them tell me what the final cost for the class would be.  Then remember you will need a book - try for a used one, which means you need to go the first night to the college bookstore and try to find one, cause everyone else will be doing the same thing.  I think my class was 2 credits plus the book - about $100 so I just put money away til the next semester to afford it.

Ugh... well, like I said, maybe someday. B'sides, I would have to wait till the little one isn't so little anymore. Colleges generally frown on bringing a baby to class, especially with the whole breastfeeding thing. heh

Hey, that's okay, too.  That little one (and the mama juice) is worth doing as long as it takes.  This will wait and babies don't.

Indeed... my little punkin is less than thrilled today. He had one of those trips to the doctor's with nasty jabs. AND he's teething.

Ouch!!!   Barbara B