Karaoke Forums

kelly please UP your meds cuz if you have paid attention instead of just grabbing the pieces that fit your position, you would know that I do not accept tips/bribes when I KJ.  matt knows this because he got the policy and philosophy from me... my point for backing up toqer's position/policy/ethics (I'll let you pick and choose whatever works for you) is because his position on tipping/bribing is as legitimate as your position of not tipping/bribing... but you or matt won't concede that point because your head is buried in apples... you can disagree with how he does things or not but he is no more wrong in his position than you and matt are... like matt said- apples and lemons- if it ain't your fruit of choice, then don't eat it, but why attack and insult just because someone else likes lemons???  there have been members in this conversation who were initially totally against him too and yet now they are asking him questions about his video feeds, the technology to do it, the software they created and other aspects of his show that they might now incorporate into their own (which is what this thread was intended to do)... if you don't like HIS ideas or how he does things then submit your own ideas and plans to reinvent karaoke and start a conversation you can contribute to instead of just pick apart... - tig

I do... it's my venue that I'm at weekly!
Good point.

Actually, what I meant by that is I founded my company based on my own observations, and those of my close friends that I trusted their opinions... my way IS the way that my local community feels very strongly about.[/quote]

Actually, I'd love to see your reaction when someone walks up to a cashier and waves a ten dollar bill and she says "Everyone back up... this person is next!"

I'm SO happy that they're happy! 

No I'm a person with an OPINION that states that I don't think it's acceptable to take bribes for rotation adjustment. PERIOD. I think that's total C R A P!! I think making everyone else wait while a selfish person who's not afraid to lose a few dollars so that they can satisfy their own personal karaoke needs faster than waiting like everyone else is doing is C R A P! And I think that your ENCOURAGING this behavior is not only C R A P, but for all your vaulted talk about reinventing the karaoke community, you're doing more to tear it down than build it up by this ONE action.

I'm stating that "I" would walk out of your show, and that others MIGHT but that if they follow true form, you'd not know why. I DO think you only seem to respect people with money for special treatment...  I'm not the only one that's disagreed with you, but you are singling me out on this, apparently.

my gawd... so much applesauce and so little time... if you already have a successful show, matt, then you have no need of any of his ideas for reinvention so what is your point?? simply to jump in and grab ONE point he made in it all because it rubbed you wrong??? you obviously ignored the painstaking recreation and demonstration I posted earlier about taking what is useful and discarding what isn't, no matter who posts it... you have lost sight of the fact that what works in YOUR show doesn't work in everyone's show and the same goes for Toqer's show... it is finding that combination of methods and ideas that work out smoothly that make a great show- whether you like how it is done or not... if you wanna start a conversation on the ethics of a show, legalities of a show, and moral high grounds then start a new topic addressing those points and let those who are still interested in the ideas he has offered up to continue their conversations...  and I don't ever recall watching you storm out of one of your buddies shows after they blatantly take a bribe- so whats the diff???

Well, I had always felt this was the situation... Your strong stances mirrorred mine in many areas, and gave me the encouragement to break with "accepted standards". So I didn't get that policy from you as much as I confirmed this was the proper way to do so.

I'm STILL asked on a constant basis "Where's your Tip Jar?". Because I don't want the appearance of being one that accepts tips (bribes) for preferred treatment.

If someone wants to tip me, they can. I have no troubles with that. But it won't get you preferred treatment (although I'll remember them a bit more clearly! !)

I'm not grabbing at anything. I have not said anything about either one of you not being open minded. I have not said anything about YOU taking bribes.  You two, are the ones who have made the statement that WE, are not open minded.  I have said nothing about his other ideas.  I'm listening. I find them very interesting.  The ONLY thing I have had a problem with is HIS "bribe issue".  And because he is for it, I can't help but be very questional about anything else he preaches.

That one issue, in my full time position, my part time postion and life in general is in MY opinion as unethical as you can get.  BUT as I tried to say, let's agree to disagree and get on with the rest of the show!

Kelly

We BOTH walked out of a competitor's show, and yes, I've walked out of a friend's show for such behavior. Not all the time, but I also don't go there unless I want to see that "friend", and I also will not tell folks about that "friend's show" unless I clarify that they accept tips for rotation adjustment.

Munchin' on an apple!

You know a mixture of apple and lemon juice wouldn't taste very good....

Anywho, I kinda like the idea of pay per sing.  Come on, most people who do karaoke are in bars.  They pay for drinks.  They pay for video poker.  They pay for darts.  They pay for pool.  Who in the world made the karaoke free when we could've been making a dollar a song off of it?  Plus they are getting the chance to use thousands (tens of thousands?) of dollars worth of equipment.  What's a measly buck a song?  And how many songs will they do in a normal rotation?  5 an night?  I spend more than that on alcohol in a bar in less than an hour!

Granted, I don't see how someone could put this into place due to everyone is so used to free karaoke now, but it's a good thought and should have been put in place a long time ago in my opinion.

there are a few venues that work this way, or at least give tokens for reimbursement at the bar... In many ways, I personally LIKE this way, or having a door cover charge with the money being able to be used for food or drink vouchers... anything that will keep the non-spenders (yet are strangely karaoke whores in the extreme!) away and put spenders in the seats.

Without the bar being supported, I'm not going to stay in business!

The one trouble with paying for karaoke is, the most singers you can have in a night is 60 (figure 15 songs per hour), maybe up to 75 for the fifth hour... once the bar knows you're getting paid, they're going to want to STOP paying you!

I'm done with this thread. I made my suggestions, a few people said "those are neat ideas" while a few others said  "it's crappy crud unprofessional." taking stabs at me.

I'm not even going to make any more counterpoints because arguing with yall is completely unrelated to the thread at hand.

_________________
Living my life as Robert Cortese, 162 E. Jackson St, San Jose CA.

It's like the difference between high and low budget toilet paper, it really doesn't matter in the end. -exweedfarmer

Which is smarter? Just sticking to making/selling karaoke, while people all over the world create software FOR FREE that helps you sell it, or trying to compete with them and keeping it a closed loop while you blow your money into an industry (software) that you(the karaoke manu) knows nothing about?
-me

That's exactly why I wouldn't be in favor of "pay to sing" and why I don't set up a tip jar.  Our best bartender has a tip jar.  And he does quite well, but the pay he recieves from the owner ain't squat.  Also I still say I want the money that the customer pays to go to the owner.  The more money they make, the more I stay in business.

Kelly

I don't agree - The more money the owners make ....The more money the owners make. One of the reasons I started this topic was so many KJ 's are losing there jobs and income to the $49.99 KJ.  If  the owner of YOUR bar can save $75 a night hiring someone else ...I'm sure you wouldn't mind ?

But if your show is SO unique and innovative that the $49 KJ's can't compete then you can ASK for more money.

1ST Things first –Let’s get off this BRIBE thing once and for all.
2nd – Apples, Lemons or Oranges - I started this topic because what WE are doing
DOES NOT WORK (US meaning the collective professional KJ).

I’ve read many topics about how the price willing to be paid to KJ’s is getting lower and lower around the country. We all know that anyone with a loaded hard drive they bought on E-bay for $500 can get into the KARAOKE business and will work for $50 a night.  WE need to re-invent the proverbial karaoke wheel to make the standards of a karaoke show much higher so hackers can’t compete and venues will be more selective on the KJ shows they hire -   Singers need to want to go a show where they get more than a $50 KJ.   We need ideas HOWEVER CRAZY they may SEEM to some.  Some of you may be correct when you say the day of the $300 KJ is gone
But if we can raise the standard pay upwards $50, $75, $100 by offering something different and unique and or looking at other venues to host shows besides BARS and Restaurants.
Offering other services that compliment karaoke singing – Video streaming, cd recording,
Souvenir photos, special member cards, stage lighting. open mic nights, etc etc .

Let’s get some more ideas ………

Save the name calling and flaming for the other Karaoke forums

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm a firm beleiver that the owner should be paying the KJ not the singers.  And my feelings are that if the money is going to the owner then the owner should have less excuses to not pay a good wage to the KJ.

I meet many KJ's who complain about how much they are getting paid.  My first question to them is who agreed to work for that amount.  True the full time KJ may have to take what is given where as the partimer can maybe afford to hold out for more.

It's hard for me to imagine that there are KJ working for $49.  Trust me I believe you.  It's just hard to see how they do it.  I see many clubs who try to hire the cheapest KJ they can.  But time and time again theses clubs fail to hold the crowd.  Most of the good bar owners I've met realize you pay for what you get.

Not sure what you mean that what we are doing doesn't work?  Maybe I'm an old fuddy duddy but what has consitantly worked for me is 1. GOOD equipment.  (I understand that yes that costs money)  2. GOOD Selection of music and good quality music. By that I mean Sound Choice and Chartbuster. (IMO) (Again, I know they cost more)  and 3. Fair treatment of the customers.  I talk with my customers.  I ask WHY do you like to come to my shows and time and time again, these are the top three things they tell me.

I know this sounds really simplistic, but I think this in it's self can make a KJ successful.  The extra ideas we can come up with simply add to an already good package.  Basically you have to have a good foundation or all the "Flash" won't make a difference.

Kelly

Holding the crowd is definitely a hard thing in my experience.

I've seen K.J's trying gimmicks, but if you rely on people that like gimmicks
you're in trouble, because this weeks gimmick is next weeks "been there done that!
and the gimmicks have to keep on coming!

We have to remember that the style of the evening ( controlled or at least
moderated by the K.J.) directly dictates the style of crowd you attract.

I've seen Jazz karaoke that attracts older folks and Pop only karaoke that
attracts the young folks. And yes , I've seen bad karaoke that attracts people
for a drink and hardly any singers.

For regular clubs to avoid a website or discussion group or any web presence
at all is criminal in this day and age, it don't cost too much, and it does help
folks "bond".

Moving on to webcam and live stream, you start to rack up the cost. It can
provide an advertising presence and attract people, but thats a purely financial
decision.

I still feel consistency ( once you've got the regular crowd ) is critical.
People will bring friends along having told them what to expect and if its
not the same you'll probably lose them and the friends.

It can work to have themed nights, e.g. an Elvis special on the annivarsary,
but again you have to know the crowd to pick what will work and what won't.
Knowing your customers is so important.

Will.

seven pages and about  five and one half are about taking a bribe or tip which ever you wish to call it
The bar that i have my show at  is now doing karaoke 3 nights a week ( I started it with a Sat show 4 years ago )  and surprise the attendance is going down on all three nights
I've tried lights so are ok with them others HATE THEM they say that they are too bright and distracting
I've tried little contests  ( blind draw they don't know what they are singing until they are up ) very minor success most people come to sing a few songs
what's next ?

Light mixer works wonders for that situation, you just dim the offending lights enough.  The singer feels better but the stage can still be seen well.

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Song request Slips,

Most KJ who have books use them - little slips of paper, that singers put thier name and song title and disc number on.

I save mine for my regular customers but now I find it a PITA to keep filing them and sorting them etc. Eventually they get OLD and dirty.

Is ther a non computerized  ALTERNATIVE ?

I thought about creating discs for my regulars : ie All John Doe's songs on 1 disk
This way I'm not shuffling 4 or 5 discs a night for him.  I could give him a laminated CARD with the song titles and track numbers - Then he could fill out a slip
with his name and track number --BUT I COULD THROW THAT SLIP AWAY.
No more filing and handling multiple discs .. Multiply this by 10 regulars and you go from 45 discs to 10 discs only ?  Would this work...  I guess there are legaility issues of creating a disc like this????

Whats your thoughts

Personally, as long as you own the originals I see nothing wrong.  I'm compuertized but I see where you're coming from.  I use song slips and for my regulars I use a small spring clip that I give them once they become a "regular."  I have a separate expandable book that I keep the "regulars"   song slips in.  When they come in for the evening they get them out and put them up when they're through for the evening.  I also put my name, phone and email address on my slips.  Saves on business cards.

Kelly

I would like my regs to buy a small flash drive and put their new songs in zip form on them for use at the show...I dont see anything illegal or shady about that but putting their selections from our libary might be a horse of a different color...
 
A local club here is a chain and with high speed access is supplying live DJ music to all the clubs...They do pay $425 for KJ but havnt for awhile..  I can see them downloading karaoke from a central source.... If any one here could get that gig who would go along with this scheme? It's tempting but who would???/

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I just write them on a full sheet of paper that I keep in my master book. My regulars just come up and tell me when and what they want to sing

At my shows we use a dry erase marker board. Singers add their names themselves and right next to the name goes the code for the songs they want. There are some issues with this method though... people erasing names to get up sooner, ect. Sometimes your night can be consumed being the "board police".  I have used paper slips too though. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Elisha