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My 14 year old daughter has been singing for awhile and is starting to develop a good sound. She just signed up for choir, but not sure she wants to stay. My question is, - do you think she could grow in choir and it make her a better overall singer such as pop songs, or would it tend to constrain her into the choral (word?) sound?

The reason I ask this is I've run into singers at karaoke, etc that have extensive choir training and they only know how to sing formally like in a choir when they approach any song and sing it on there own.  This is instead of trying to mimic the sound of the original artist - inflections and all. I remember one time at Bob Populars in Austin I was chatting with another guy there at karaoke and we decided to sing U2's 'With or Without You'. It was horrible. He was singing classically formal in the way he was executing the U2 song, and I was trying to sing it like U2. It occurred to me that perhaps he really doesn't know how to sing it any other way.

Note: I just had my daughter record a couple of songs for the first time today, and will probably post to SS soon.  

What do you think?  Is choir worth it for her, providing valuable singing time, or will it mess her up as a rich, diverse singer?

Also, can you think of any notable singers that got their start in choir?

Good heavens, there must have been at least a hundred notable singers that started in choirs, mostly African American (Mahalia Jackson, Luther Vandross, Pearl Bailey, quite an extensive list).  I think choir training is a good way to learn discipline in singing (in fact, I used to lead a choir and play organ at a church in New Jersey in my late teens).  I would recommend you daughter try this.  As for losing any individual style, well, that is up to the individual.  I know what you mean about "mannered" singing--there is nothing wrong with that but there are so many singers out there who sound identical to the next one.  A good example is this Katharine McPhee, who came in second on "Idol" this year.  Great voice, fine technician, but I could not differentiate her from any number of female vocalists.  Often the person is just blessed with a "different" sound to their singing voices but there are "trademark" styles one can adopt as they go along. For some, it is a noticeable vibrato (Johnny Mathis, Dinah Washington), for others it could be something like an unusual way of pronouncing words (Louis Prima), etc.  Just what gives a singer a "certain style" is a collection of variables I think, some maybe not even clear to the person singing with a certain identifiable style!

I learned to sing with a rock band first than a choir. There is a definite
difference. Using your head voice or your chest voice. If she can develope both
I think it is a plus. Gospel singing is a whole different story. Look at Whitney Houston.

If I had a choice growing up I wish I would have had the experience of singing with
a gospel choir. They let you sing out of the box so to speak. I think it is just as important to encourage her to have her own sound and freedom to express herself.

You need a good vocal coach that understands what you want. Does she want to be
an opera singer or a pop singer? If she wants to be a pop singer you need a vocal coach who can bring out the Christina Agulara in her not the choir singer. I don't think it is bad for her to be in choir, but she needs to learn there are different ways of singing. The more types she is exposed to probably the better, but if all her training is with the choir that is what you'll get.

I hope this made sense. All I know if if my only experience was singing with a choir I
would have never been able to tap into the power singer in me.

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One of the advantages I found singing with Choirs, glee clubs, barbershop quartets (I was only filling in, I was the directer and arranger. I had to be able to sing the parts, whether I could sing or not  LOL ..  No barbershop would have me otherwise) was the discipline learning to focus on your part while all sorts of motion in strong other voices is going on every which way, around you, It feels as though your arms are getting torn off initially, an alto, standing next to a soprano is going to get a little confused at first, etc..  Sopranos are going up, tenors are jumping around, and Altos are standing there trying to focus on singing just THEIR OWN part while all sorts of stuff is happening around them LOUD too in the coed choirs... etc.  It's a good concentration discipline, and it does teach you when to listen, and when to try to listen to yourself ONLY, and know your part VERY well without wavering around get tugged by strong singers in other voices, etc.  It was a good lesson in Site Singing too, confidence in knowing YOUR part among distraction especially when the orchestra is added.

Before expanding the barbershop to a larger glee club, I jumped around between bass, baritone and 2nd tenor, falsetto'd 1st half-a$$ed just to try to help with parts, when there was dissonance written into the arrangment, and it really taught me how to focus, when the mens and womens gleeclubs combined during Christmas concerts I sort've got shoved aside because the director of the womens glee club was the vocal instructor of the college, and much much more experienced than myself, so they duct-taped me someplace on the side of the stage... (For some reason I found it easier just sitting on the side falsettoing to the Soprano voices ) .. Finally I was lucky enough to leave the singing to the singers, and just arrange, direct, and organize.. I had to kick myself out've the gleeclub and stick to directing.. It IS a good discipline in focusing on YOUR part.  Site-reading music, KNOWING the parts and sticking to them, and feeling like part of a team really is a great experience.

At 14 it might be tougher for her to find a glee club, but larger areas likely have them.  If she wants popular I'd think glee club, of course I don't know how things are these days in the schools, Most kids in elementary school and Jr High have to start off in choir, glee club and pop styles come in High School as I recall.  At least when we were growing up choir was a little more traditional.  Christmas concerts, liturgical styles, and Classical.  Even getting the glee club away from Gershwin (Stuff like Fascinating Rhythm) and the dryer popular such as Mama's and Papa's  "Lazy Day" was no piece of cake.. Popular, I'd check glee club out.  Most High Schools have those, don't they ?  Maybe next year for her... 14 was still Jr High for me  (well to be honest it was still 2nd grade but I don't advertise that)..  Time to go to sleep, still rundown..

Remember, ANY exposure to, or experience even in band and orchestra is a great way to get into any and ALL types of music,  CHoir is great, glee club comes next, etc,,  AS LONG as she likes it !!  Remember to nurture the fun, and comradery in this,,  IF they like it at 14, they go on, if it's a negative experience, perhaps even just because of a bad teacher, bully, etc..  That can ruin music for them... If she likes it, it's great...  THAT'S what initially counts.

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PS: I just submitted my daughters first public recording in SS. She did Breakaway by Kelly Clarkson. She's a little far back from the mic especially at first. I'm gonna work with her on that. Check her out on SS!

Bill

Steven has a valid point about this being valuable training in singing harmony parts with other singers--it can, and will, drive you up a wall doing this unless you have had experience.  This alone make choral singing a good experience.  Coming up next:  The night this kid in my choir jumped off the organ loft and lived to talk about it--I still have not fully recovered from that heart attack of over 20 years ago.

As long as he didn't jump from the top of a bass pipe on an older pipe organ.  That can shatter a femur or two.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Good point about learning harmony. I still have people that come up
on stage during karaoke and say they are going to sing harmony and
just sing the normal part. Thay have no clue what harmony is. If you can
train her to hear harmony at a young age I think that gives her an edge.

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I just went to listen - I bet you are super proud!

I would love to hear her voice more up front - Let us know
when she puts up her next song.

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[quote="Steven Kaplan @ Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:51 am"]As long as he didn't jump from the top of a bass pipe on an older pipe organ.  That can shatter a femur or two.[/quote]

He's the only kid, after all these years, whose name I still remember.  Apparently he had the resiliency of Gumby because he jumped off the balconey, took his bow, and ran back up the stairs to the organ loft.  There was also the night on Christmas Eve when the "guest singer" showed up drunk and had an "accident" while singing over the same spot the kid jumped from.  It was awful....he was singing "O Holy Night" of course.  Then there was the morning the speakers picked up a bleedover from some deranged home CB station owner across the parking lot.  That was awful too. I never saw so many heads turn in my direction at once...and of course I had the volume pumped  up high in anticipation of the next hymn, so they got a real earful of this character cursing at the top of his lungs on his radio.

Yeah, I am. I've been trying to get her more interested in it for years, but there are so many things that compete for a kids attention. She's just starting High School this year as a Freshman. I've been to a few places where people bring their kids to karaoke, and I've seen some really good child singers. I always thought it would be fun if we could go to sing as a Father/Daughter thing.



Yeah, I have to get her to get a little closer to the mic and broadcast a bit more. Have to work on the breathing and learning / practicing the songs even more.

But yeah, I'll let you know about the next one. Actually she did two that I recorded. She also did 'Wake Me Up Inside' by Evanescence. It was good also but she wasn't quite load enough. After I recorded her on it and she did a few more songs she later sang it again and did a much better job. So, I could see all the warm up was important - I know it is for me. I think I'll let her practice and try it again before I post it.

I appreciate the points and ideas all of you have expressed so far. As of tonight she has signed up for choir. I was talking with her and asking if she was sure she didn't want to do theatre, but she said she wants to work on her singing.  So there it is, Dad didn't have a say anyway, but I did relay to her all of what you said before she told me. I guess she concurs that choir is a good thing. Sounds like it may be fun although it will be busy with many practices and performances. That on top of all her honors classes, and tennis practice. Will be interesting to see how it all works out.

Bill

The choirs I've been in were great.  Much depends on the choir director, some that I had were excellent vocal coaches as well.  I learned alot of tips and tricks from my directors.  Also, the music we had in choir wasn't the usually "hymnal" songs.  It was very modern and upbeat.  It was difficult music to learn but most members of the choir were excellent singers.  Having someone who sings well next to you in choir is a bonus, too.

For me, it was choir first, then karaoke, then a recitative for  Handel's Messiah in a very large community choir.  After that, I got serious and went  for voice lessons.   I moved away and couldn't afford the lessons any longer, but for the short time I took them my singing improved.   I hope your daugher enjoys the choir and adds other singing adventures to her life.  Sounds like she's really interested in working on it and choir is an excellent start.

In my experience, choir isn't necessarily beneficial to getting better in popular styles.  In order to get a good choral sound, she will be learning more how to "homogonize" her sound to blend in and more than likely will be working on her "choral" sound which will strengthen and focus more on her head voice.  This is not a BAD thing perse, but if she doesn't keep up practicing her popular styles and vocalizing in her chest voice, this homoginization can take over.  I've seen it happen to a lot of great singers.  You probably know what i'm talking about.  They sing all pop songs the same, and sound like choir girls singing them.

That's not to say choir is BAD.  Choir will strengthen her ear, which is definitely beneficial, and it will also strengthen her fundamentals (which translate to pop singing), and her stamina.  What helped me alot (especially in college) is when I opened up and started singing more jazz ALONG with my other more classical choir and opera stuff.  This strengthened my popular stylings and my chest voice while I still retained the ability to do classical style.  

So IMO choir can be great, but just don't let it be her main and only singing outlet.  Encourage her to sing her pop songs and find her own individual sound so that she doesn't start thinking of that homoginized choir sound as "hers"

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Elisha makes a valid point there...it really depends on what the aspiring artist desires.  I remember students I took piano lessons with who really had the classical music nailed down but that's all they pursued.  Later in high school orchestra, I well remember one of these students that I took turns playing the piano parts with and truly, she was really stiff and unfeeling when we did any popular music selections, especially when the piano was soloing or an obligato passage came up.

Years ago, there was a very popular singer named Dick Haymes.  Music critics, even today, will remark the man never made a mistake, he was technically perfect in every sense when he sang; in fact, his mother WAS a voice teacher.  The thing was, there was no emotion behind anything he did really...his voice was virtually indistinguishable from any extremely well trained singer who did not venture out from the "by the book" approach.  There is something to be said about that I feel.

Many good points have already been mentioned. What choir did for me was to teach me the rules. I decided which rules I would break on my own while practicing my favorites. Had it not been for choir I wouldn't have the support to do Megadeth or the range to do Judas Priest.

I'll make an analogy to kids playing sports.  If you want to be a great athlete, it's beneficial to play, say, basketball.  It's more beneficial to play basketball, and soccer, and football, etc.  If you know that you don't care about being a great athlete, and just want to be a great basketball player, then you don't really need to play soccer and football, you can just focus on basketball.

I think that's why we've all seen great choral or classical singers who can't do a decent version of a pop song.  They've been focusing on basketball, and they're great at it, but give them a pair of ice skates and they can't stay on their feet.

It just depends on what you want.  I don't think choral singing does any harm, but if that's the only kind of singing you ever do, then that's how you'll approach every kind of song.  It's better than never singing at all, but if you want to sing popular music AND choral music, then practice both and learn the differences.  Simple.

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I'm going to use Tom's analogy.....  only with a twist.  If your child wants to be a professional football player then of course practice in high school and college will help a great deal, but the rules of the game are different in college than they are in the pros.  So basically I think any practice is great, choir helps to develop your ear to harmonies and intervals and especially scales oh my lord scales will drive her nuts, but it's experience nonetheless so I say practice makes perfect.

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I've been in several choirs and loved them!  Speaking for myself, the more singing I do, the more confident I am about it, regardless of musical genre.

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Another option of course, is let her sing in choir, and get her song books of popular stuff too.  Why can't she do both ?  Does she play piano ?   (not sure if you mentioned this, but basic piano is a good thing for most kids to have some training in) IMHO..  It helps make music more of a visual experience IMHO

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