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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 12:33 pm 
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I feel there is plenty of work out there for everyone if they want to KJ. Yes there are good KJs and bad. If you are a reputable KJ and do a good job I don't believe there is a reason to be unfriendly with others that are doing the same good work.

Most of our area KJs are very friendly and I so appreciate it. I had 2 different KJs come into my bar last night because they weren't working. One brought a disc to help out the other with his New Years Show. How nice is that! (Marty3 rocks) :D

I had a bad experience with a wife and husband KJ team that would come to my shows on Fridays. They were very friendly with me, but behind my back try to steal my gig. Well the bar owner told me about it and told them that there was no way and the patrons stopped talking to them. Needless to say they don't come in anymore.

I feel there is plenty of work for everyone and we should back each other up when we can.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 12:48 pm 
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well..... your Chicago suburb ain't Portland, OR!! LOL!


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 12:49 pm 
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This gets into the CUTHROAT nature of the KJ/DJ businesas. I've encoutered NUMEROUS instances of people undercutting, stealing gigs, trying to put each other out of work. It's become unbelievably nasty. The latest I've come across is a long-time KJ that's been going to bars with independent KJ's and attempting to sell CAVS systems to the bar, then making a deal to supply the bar with the "$50 a night" KJ as part of the selling plan--ie buy the gear from ME and then you'll never have to pay real KJ wages again--effectively taking that venue out of the line-up for independent KJ's. Other symptoms---coming in and offering lower prices to the owners, ex-KJ's at a particular place trying to sabotage the present KJ(seen this one more than once and had it done personally to me at one gig). Bar owners trying to recruit you to take the gig from the existing KJ who had brought you in to sub for him. Other KJ's coming to visit your show and trying to take your job and custies. It's just really a NASTY BUSINESS and believe me when I say yes I see this and hear ALL kinds fo stories from ALL kinds of Karaoke places. From the owner's standpoint it breeds an attitude of the KJ's all being a dime-a-dozen and one's the same as the other and they are realy not worth much more than interchangable machine parts. Hence the refusal to pay for the VALUE of the PROFESSIONAL KJ. As a Karaoke magazine feature story writer and photographer-3 Karaoke magazines-Seattle, Portland and LA(make sure you pick up a copy of the FEB/March issue of Karaoke Scene printed magazine--with my upcoming feature article on LONMAN) I go to ALL kinds of Karaoke places in Three states. So I see it all and hear it all.For instance one of the first things I usually hear is "Do you know this or that guy's show?? HE REALLY SUCKS". Instead of "Hey that guy has a really cool show too!" The funny part about that is I probably know that guy and have done a story on him at one time or another!  :shock: Yep it's cuthroat and nasty and cliquish and a little Karaoke Peyton Place. The sad part about it all is if the KJ's instead of saying Im better that him or them, trying to screw each other, instead maintain commuincations, work together and clue others in when gigs open up and help each other out they would be MUCH BETTER OFF. Many KJ's need to learn one of the basic rules of operating a business---NEVER, EVER PUT DOWN YOUR COMPETITOR. IT PUTS YOU IN A VERY BAD LIGHT AND REFLECTS VERY POORLY ON YOUR BUSINESS. If you must talk about your competition then talk up the advantages YOU OFFER, But NEVER, EVER PUT DOWN AND BAD MOUTH YOUR COMPETITOR. Taking that approach I have to believe that far more BENEFIT would come to all. I mean you just never know what might open up down the line and if you've gone before and dissed someone else or screwed them in some way ---it really can end up cutting your own throat when that other guy might have had an opportunity for you. But Alas, people being people, there will always be those that will undercut, badmouth, put down  and try to screw the other person over for thier own gain.
As to believing there's plenty of work for KJ's out there.............well.....NO, I don't. There's a fixed number of venues available for KJ's but WAY MORE KJ's available than venues. Supply and Demand. WAY MORE SUPPLY and NOT ENOUGH DEMAND(Economics 101-supply and demand curves). If there were PLENTY of work then there wouldnt be a need for backstabbing and cuthroat behavior.
But, when it's this competitive/cuthroat/desparate then this is the behavior you get. Too many available KJ's for too few available venues. People will cut your throat for a low-paying one-night-a-week gig.
Must be nice in Chicago to have a HARMONIOUS KJ industry where everyone treats each other nicely and helps each other out and supports each other. It certainely isnt that way out here on the west coast.  Yes, I'm in Portland.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:31 pm 
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Make mental note to self

Stay away from Oregon! LOL

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:44 pm 
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LOL! Yeah, I was just starting to feel good about Portland until Kurt spoke up! shAEESH!


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 3:16 pm 
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On the spot reporting! Telling it like it is! Search your FEELINGS---You KNOW it to be TRUE! And Matt-----I DO BELIEVE YOU echoed a good amount of what I said in YOUR OWN KARAOKE SCENE MAGAZINE FEATURE ARTICLE if I recall correctly!  :O
And maybe you better watch out too---maybe that guy with the CAVS deal might start sniffing around your place too. It wouldn't surprise me!  :shock:

Now not to make you think that OREGON is a horrible place, it's not---Ive met some very welcoming and  helpful KJ's--Like Matt. But by the same token I've run into some of the biggest SNAKES you can possibly imagine. But overall I still have to say it's a situation of EVERY MAN FOR HIMSELF---and it's a result of oversaturation and cutthroat competion. Not enough gigs and too many KJ.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 3:44 pm 
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oh yeah, I wasn't kiddin' either. But you make it sound so NASTY! :P


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:03 pm 
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Just depicting it ACCURATELY. And yes it is nasty to sit by and listen to it and observe it time after time. Again doing all these storys all the time, I go all over, meet all kinds and have to politely listen to them say this and that about this or that person. Add into the mix owners that I've either gotten to know or observed or KJ'd for and watched and listened to them--it just never stops. Probably the thing I'm VERY best at is LISTENING and OBSERVING. Listen to the storys KJ's tell of how this or that owner or other KJ screwed them over or they lost gigs because of a knife in the back. YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN!  So its not that Im depicting this as NASTY SIMPLY TO MAKE IT SOUND NASTY. But it conveying it AS IT IS in REALITY. This is the kind of stuff I see. This is what I hear when KJ's or owners talk with me. It simply IS. IT really does get TIRING after awhile.  And to try to deny that it occurs is kind of a Polly Anna way of dealing with it. People do it to me too, I'm not exempt-who knows what people say about me and the way I do my show at the place that I DJ. Some people laugh and make fun of it, some people put it and me down. But thats ok. Ill continue to do my thing the way I do it and if people dont like it oh well. Take me as I am or dont take me at all.  So better to see things for WHAT THEY ARE and then be prepared than to try to create an OVER-ROSY false reality. Then add into the mix that I have to produce a good write-up about someone that has been telling me negative stuff about some other KJ. Talk about something DISTASTEFUL! But I have to portray the postitive aspects about the venue and the person KJ'ing.  But by the same token it's refreshing to meet someone that does a really good show, the bar is a neat place to go and the person is positive and upbeat.  
There's two kinds of storys I write--one is really well crafted that paints a very postive and upbeat picture of the place and persons invloved. They get that when I find they are hard working and positive and on the up and up. The other type is a very plain barebones minimal story that is still positive or should I say, NOT NEGATIVE, but it's obvious that not alot of effort is put into is in terms of spotlighting the KJ's or the atmosphere or vibe going on--there might not even be any interview-I've only done a few of those. But when its a really negative attitude or atmostphere then thats all theryre getting--the bare minimum to satisfy the space in the paper.

But anyway as far at this thread: the reality is that this stuff does go on all the time. You know BETTER than me! I just describe it as I've observed it. It simply is. Blunt and brutal.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 9:38 am 
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Years ago when tv repair was in it's heyday all the shops were in direct competition using cut-throat tactics. They would call other shops pretending to be a customer to see what they charging for service calls etc...

RCA Zenith and others held weekend seminars for the warranty authorized shops and the techs in a fairly large area..After awhile the techs from different shops became good friends and traded repair tricks and it was an enourmas source for improving or becoming more professional..  We actually started stoppng at other shops to say hi or get a part needed right now. Gradually the shop owners started going to the seminars and meeting each other.  Then the conversations were what is your shop charge for replacing a flyback?  They all had a good idea what the charge should be to cover overhead etc yet be fair to the customer...Prices became standardized and all the shops became more efficient and professional. The fly-by-nighters started disappearing..

 With all the kids and their home karaoke machines become of age I can see the karaoke business blooming into something that we can only imagine...The Kj's and Dj's need to develop more of a business savvy and form an alliance or co-op... It is simple as that......

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:47 pm 
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Then the conversations were what is your shop charge for replacing a flyback?




Been bit By Many of those....whooooo used to Do Tv Repair After school The owner was ripping people off real bad,



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With all the kids and their home karaoke machines become of age I can see the karaoke business blooming into something that we can only imagine...The Kj's and Dj's need to develop more of a business savvy and form an alliance or co-op... It is simple as that......

Agree


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 4:52 pm 
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Remind's me of a company I was "middle management" with years back. Large retail chain "anchor" store was situated at one end of the Megaplex. Two other smaller "designer" or "Boutique" retail stores in that same mall "just happened" to carry similar items, funny small differences in product & labels could be noticed however by the "discriminating" shopper. Similarly, the "frugal" less pretentious shopper could also makeout, and use this to their advantage by purchasing what appeared to be the exact same garment without the "USA" label on it, you know, the shirt with the "generic name". The shirt sold at the larger dept. store down at the end of the mall. A "smart shopper" will win out LMAO


:laughatthat:
(assuming all three stores aren't the same ownership, and all stores aren't thriving).
Even-so, The stores still appease to different mind-set's . It works!

D&L was the parent company that owned Sandpiper and Weathervane stores.

All store's made out by setting up a competitive type environment. Amazing how presentation sell's  :shock:

Needless to say, this is VERY common  LOL. "Hey, I can get that across the street at your competition"  :no:

But can this work outside of the location that has a decent customer flow ?  Bar's aren't retail megaplexes for the most part.  Can finding employment in the smaller suburban bars today be viewed as analogous ?   I don't see how.  If bar business is down in general,  revenue is down. There's less (demand) for KJ's.  Isn't it reasonable to assume that increasing the number of KJ's (supply) will affect (cost) aspect's ?  Exactly as Kurt stated !   Law's of supply and demand/ cost and demand.

What I hear people saying, is that they believe the employee of a tenuous industry can create the market.  Outside of a fantasy scenerio, How likely is it that a few talented entertainer's working within an industry getting whacked by so many extraneous factor's (such as a poorer general economy, DUI law's, clean-air bill's, strict liquor law's) can become the saviours and increase profit for the liquor industry ?  This doesn't seem feasible.  There just isn't "Plenty for everybody" these days.  During a recession numerous employee's suffer. Creating more competition although "legal" in capitalism, CERTAINLY affects the better qualified employee's.  It forces them into early retirement.  Isn't the bottomline if things are slowly shifting unfavorably for those relying on sale of alcohol, and luxury item's for livelihood (during tighter times), most entertainers WILL ALWAY'S get hit in the wallet ?  It's a luxury.

I also touched on something a few month's back in a different thread.  I started wondering about "life of a fad". Is it possible the novelty of karaoke as viewed by the general public, isn't what it was 15 years ago ?  This too would hurt the KJ.

Seems to me, that the ONLY way many in the entertainment industry today can save their @$$, is to be innovative and create something novel. Yet as we discussed in JAMKARAOKE'S thread, sooner of later, cousin "fester" the leech and his friend's are going to catch on, and want to try that as well saturating the supply with affordable "hacks".

Now all this aside, should dire strait's serve as a reason people resort to unethical practices, and allow etiquette to suffer ?  Ideally no, yet given human nature, even during easier times "Thou shall bash they competition" was prevalent  :(  I don't see adding stress to a situation as ever making human nature more nobel for any duration.  In the 70's we musicians started suffering abit. We were getting replaced by the DJ at a faster clip. "Disco" didn't require a trio, quartet, and bar owner's certainly didn't want to pay $$$ for a 7 piece horn band that could play EW&F & BS&T type stuff anymore, if one person spinning a turntable could fit his bill. Solo pianist's, and guitar duet's that played live started to take cut's in pay, as younger college kid's undercut us providing a different type entertainment, for less money.
Was I annoyed at the kid's, or the DJ's for getting jobs ?  NOPE.   Is it really THEIR fault that a venue hired them ?  Is it a venues "fault" for wanting to save money ?

I adapted and stopped getting annoyed as I lost job's to those I felt had less talent,  or provided music that *I* thought "sucked".  My feeling's didn't change the reality that my time was up :(  Thing's in artistic area's (like sports) are competitive, and  always evolving  and transforming. They are transient.  It's just the way things work when you get involved in an area of aesthetic's in a world that always changes.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:14 pm 
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There are many comparisons which contrast in trying to form your analogy. So I will try to provide and analyze the commonalities between the two types of businesses that will determine their failure or success. The economy is one of the greatest factors but it will break the department stores before the bars and I will tell you why.. They found out during the big depression that the more people were downtrodden and depressed the more they drank..They would sacrifice many luxuries for the wine. Due to social engineering and laws that eventually turn into generators of revenue more and more people are drinking at home or they are drinking at hours of the day that the local law enforcement agencies are at a minimum force and not patrolling for dui's.

But the most important factor is this...  I found out in outside tv repair it was 49% knowledge, pricing, tecniques or things often beat to death by those trying to compete. The remaining 51% was public relations and reputation.. At that time the number one hated profession was attorneys and second was tv repairmen.. You would enter 8-10 stranger's homes per day and have 5 seconds to gain the trust and confidence of the one who was pissed off because their tv was broke again.. You could only do this with honesty being straight forward and providing a (public) service at a fair price..

 In the bar scene add another public relations factor... You are dealing with people that are drinking.. It takes a special talent and patience to manage a bar or deal in any way with drunks in a business matter. This is something that cant be taught or have set rules. For example the cops are afraid of crowds and add the factor that the crowd is made up of drunks and they ae totally lost...

 So what does all of this that have to do with competition between those trying to offer Kj and Dj services? Samo.. 98% of the threads on this forum are about rules, legalities, tech stuff and what is best etc and nothing about public relations especially those that deal with the drinking public...While it is true that if there is an abundance of karaoke hosters, and I use that term loosely, the price tends to drop. But as the going rate drops so does the service which most bar owners now are starting to figure out.. It is up to those with people skills and rational business thoughts to organize and set standards in this vocation..Can you imagine 3 or 4 kj's on friendly terms entering a bar soliciting business? The first impression would be these guys are professionals and would benefit this place. Especially after someone was in and trying to undercut or jacking their jaws and the word sir not in their vocabulary...

When this happens then the wantabes will be gone..Prices will be set at a standard fair rate which will allow the operators a margin to update their systems and purchase music legally...So in answer to the original theme.. As long as there is direct competition everybody will suffer...

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:28 pm 
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Interesting post Karyoker !   You got me thinking. :oh yeah:

My thought's were that strict law's almost pushing things towards the day's of prohibition, put a squeeze on traveling away from home to drink. Regardless of what's out there, people that can't drink and smoke "out there", aren't going to find whatever is provided as appealing any longer.

I need to think about some of what you stated. You are in a sense saying, most situations such as what I describe CAN in fact be turned around. (at least I think that's what I'm reading).

I certainly agree that when thing's get tougher (as the old adage goes) liquor sales, mental health worker's, atty's, and funeral director's job's won't be *as* affected by these factors.  Particularly alcohol sales via liquor stores, and the funeral director's vocation. My feeling's of course are mental health worker's, and atty's still fall into a touch of the "luxury" area..As do doc's and dentists in such a struggling economy.  My assumption being, outside the home industry that relies on serving alcohol or other profitable commodities to the customer WILL be affected by DUI, and liquor laws that can culminate in extreme punitive measure's when challenged.  TV and stereo sales, and repair (just like jewelry sales) will always be marketable however, I agree.  Yet they too rely on certain law's to remain profitable even as home entertainment features.  When TV and Stereo prices fall, (like computers), and technology becomes affordable, repair businesses too suffer.. These become "throw away" items now. Why spend $75 dollar's to fix the "Matsushita" Electronics VCR player, when it sell's at "Bernies" for $75 new with 90 day warantee ?

My assumption  however was that a law in essence saying, "You better not get caught drinking or smoking or else",  or any law crimping a person's options for leisure outside of the home, must have a profound affect.  It becomes a powerful force to reckon with  (at least for a period of time).

You mentioned something interesting regarding "police fearing crowds, and staying away from the drinkers",  I suppose in many cases alot of people will opt staying away from drinker's collectively LOL ,  Yet how about when the police gather in the bar's parking lot's around closing time, just sitting there waiting to play "cat and mouse" on the road ?

ADDED IN:

Sorry Karyoker, I keep getting glimpses of idea's when I think I'm done yacking LOL.  Can venues that serve "soft drinks" such as coffee houses sustain the KJ somehow ?   I'm a coffee drinker, I can't drink (you know, doc will take away my belt and shoelaces, etc LOL ) , thing is, how can a bar make a profit on my coffee or "DC with a twist" ? :shock:   Naturally if Barnes and Noble, or Border's provided karaoke, it'd be a good thing,  however nothing would be conducive to reading, and studying when someone such as myself got up to the microphone, and people started going into seizures.  Point being, where will karaoke succeed apart from alcohol, smoking, and the "bar" environment, and remain AS much fun, hence remaining as profitable..."Reinventing" of course was brought up in JAMKARAOKE'S thread... I suppose that's what I was questioning regarding the death of "Fad" aspects.  Can the fad ever be reinvented if novelty is dwindling ?  Creating some viable form of something that appears new and marketable to the businessman naturally is something that benefit's everyone,  this isn't easy though ~

(I'll leave this post as is, I promise... I won't add to it if I get other idea's, in hope's of not appearing as a "post hog")  LOL

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 7:09 pm 
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My thought's were that strict law's almost pushing things towards the day's of prohibition, put a squeeze on traveling away from home to drink. Regardless of what's out there, people that can't drink and smoke "out there", aren't going to find whatever is provided as appealing any longer.


I was in a bar at Mount St Michelle which is a castle that is actually off the north west coast of France.. It is on a mountain island that  high tides provides a natural moat.  When my eyes got accustomed to the dark it hit me that this bar was probably over 1000 years old.. as long as this planet survives there will be bars because we are creatures with deep social instincts and I dont care what anybody says hardly anybody likes to drink alone LMAO

 Alot of the comments about bars in this and other sources tickle me.. The patrons in bars are a cross section of the local society. Some are very religious with a deep understanding of life. Others are successful in the fact that they are maturing and developing spiritually. (These things are impossible with daily doses of drugs in any form including those that they are prescribing to teens in school) I used to have a saying the most interesting people you meet are sitting on a bar stool before noon...

I have been doing more and more private parties because of these trends. One advantage to private parties the RIAA or anybody else has no effect or legal recourse what so ever... Unless the neighbors call the cops they dont either.. The number one problem for cops right now is domestic violence...I wonder why You dont regulate morals or try to control everybodys maturity rates with laws.. They create more problems than they solve.. And like I stated before these laws become revenue generators which the politicians are more addicted to than tha addicts they are trying to "help?"

Anyway these trends are another major factor in bars existence or abilty to pay help a fair amount...Kap my brain is going into shutdown so I better go take another nap LOL

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 7:24 pm 
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Night Karyoker,  Chat with you later !    My brain shut down awhile back,  I was just getting used to writing "1969" as the date on my checks (as I mentioned to you elsehwere), now I have to get used to this new 70's decade.  But hey, life has a way of forcing us to get with the program :banghead:  We'll see how Nixon does this second year of office.




(sorry, I was trying to make a point  :laughatthat:  someplace, at least that was the initial intent....

Oh yeah.... I don't let the fact that I'm fried ruin life for my finger's, they are quite independent. ....Seem's God gave them a "free-will" of their own, I just can't take them anywhere sometimes)  :?


Anyway Karyoker,  I think I'll give it a break for abit, and head over to American Online.  Alot of competition on AOL... Did you know 90% of the guy's on AOL own mansion's with at least 7 full-sized bathroom's, have 8 digit incomes, and 9 inch digit's ?   It's got to be true,  I heard it online :shock:


TTYL Karyoker !

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 2:54 am 
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The KJ's here are brutal.  Sad thing is there is plenty of work.  If I wanted to hire another KJ and get another system running I could.  

There's a guy that comes to my shows that sat down with me a couple weeks ago and said, "You might be getting some competition soon."  He said it in a very 'watch out' kind of way.  In return I said, "What, as in he's going to try to take my shows?  If he isn't then there won't be a problem.  I welcome another show in town.  It means I could go out and not have to work!"  I said that because KJ's here don't go knocking on the doors of bars that don't have karaoke, they go knocking on doors that already do, and there's a good 8 more bars in town that have karaoke potential.  It's like they'd rather go to the places that have a regular show because they know the bar owner has said yes to karaoke before so they won't have to worry about rejection.  It's just talking the owner into scrapping the current KJ they have to worry about.  

The only time another KJ comes to my shows is to see if something will go wrong.  Or look smug if I have a small rotation.  It's sad.  There's only 3 KJ's other than myself in town.  It's not that bad with two of them but the other one would love to see me fail.

I could go on and on about this topic.  It gets my blood boiling.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:00 am 
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I do it for fun.  I have KJs come in all the time, and I know of a couple who have tried to steal it from me.  I never have understood why people would even bother to try to undercut you for such a small amount of money.  I had a guy come in with a laptop during the middle of one of my gigs.  He goes up to the bartender and says he has 50,000 songs.  She's a friend of mine (I got her the job), so she told me about it.  Yeah, I'm sure they are all legal too.  If they are not, then he invested a tremendous amount of money for what?  Hey, you wanna go to the bar owner or manager some other time and pitch your services, great, but don't do it during my show.  It must be a self-esteem thing.  It sure isn't the money.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:28 pm 
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Quote:
Folks should check out the American Karaoke Association.


I joined the AKA at inception but it seemed like it fizzled out havnt checked in a long time.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:36 pm 
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I guess they're having problems because the ADJA wants to take them over...the President is asking for support and feedback from members.  If you don't want the AKA to be disbanded, you should go leave a message. (I did!)

Roxie


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:41 pm 
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That doesnt look familiar at all maybe I was thinking of something else.. I dont remember now... But I'm going to join this one....

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