Karaoke Forums

edited cause it was a double post

Okay Bigdog I understand what you are saying, but what is your solution?

In any profession you have people who are good at what they do or bad. Sure some people get hired for a job that have no idea what they are doing. It is the employers
loss. A bad teacher, plumber, gardener ect...  If they want to pay less for quality, they get less. It's the american way. Some people have to have a college education to do their job. That sounds like regulating a job to me. Does it guarentee they will be good at it? - NO.

Regulate people who do karaoke? I don't know who would do this? By whose standards? Do I think everyone needs 800lbs of equipment - no. But you might.
If you had to pass a test or apprentise first, does this mean you'd be guarenteed to
be a great KJ? I don't think so.

A big proportion of being a good KJ is personality. How do you teach that?

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Now I know why so many of you have had dup. posts.
I got some wierd error message saying it could not send my message, so
I posted again.

sorry this was a dup post.

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I think the thread has been deliberately infected.    :shock:    You can teach personality...... with a really big stick.        I'm only talking about regulating the incomplete or misinformation given to the newbies.    Suggesting what is adequate, as far as equipment and what isn't.     How to do the business related things.

They stand a better chance with good solid in-depth information.    If they are morons, then I guess not.    Nobody will succeed.   There is a right way and a wrong way to do everything in life.

I'm surprised so many still don't see how this is having a negative affect on all of us.    I don't know how else to say it.

Maybe it's just me.     But I'm not a settle-for kinda guy.   If I can't be the best that I can be, then I won't do it.   Maybe I think more of myself.    I feel that I deserve to have nice things.    I want the best that [highlight=crimson]my[/highlight] money can buy.     There is better sounding stuff than I have.   My buddy is a DJ.   He uses Altec Landsing speakers.  Or whatever.     3000-4000 watts of power.     Full blast there isn't even a hint of disortion.   Just crytal clear sound, absolutely beautiful.      $3500 speakers.    You really need to hear them.    Now that would be a step up....   There aren't too many in his league.

You do get what you pay for?    If you're a settle-for.      We make what we deserve?   If you're a settle-for.      Maybe we do.........  :O

My girlfriend talked to a bar owner today.    The owner lady says she pays $125.     For $125, I don't leave my recliner.     I know where she can hire a Walmart system jerk.    Watching Spongebob is worth more than that, to me.    

And to all of the newbies, do yourself a big favor.     Get your startup information from an expert, whomever that may be.    Not from a settle-for.....unless that is what you intend to become.    :(

Does he have the old Altec VOTT bins ?  The older tube stuff ?  I have some of that stuff downstair.. I love it !!!

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

All I know is how good they sound.     I have..... speaker envy.

How many people have we all given so freely to, info on how we run our business.  What to buy, where, and shown how to do it.  They end up stabbing us in the back.
They call us for discs, we tell them where to buy and they go to anothers Karaoke.  Train them, and they become the competition.  Many, many of us I am sure, have dealt with this.

It's just like any business, you just have to try to remain better than them.

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I did that with my initial investment.   I bought my way to the top.   I bought myself way ahead of the competition.    When I started, I went right to the top, around here and I'm still there, because noone else feels the need to spend that kind of money.     Look at NASCAR.   Who wins most of the time?     The best driver, with the best, most expensive car.  aka. BIG money spending sponsers.     You can buy a $7000 Chevy or you can buy $70,000 Corvette.    Both of them have 4 wheels and look like a car.    How do you want to go through life?

But it's all in how you use it too, in the late 80's early 90's I had a 77 Camaro with a 500+ horse 383 stroker motor & would EAT Corvettes all day long (some big block Vettes included although I did sweat those) in the 1/4.  Total cost of my car approx $8K.
A good kj can make a crap system sound decent, but if they don't know what they are doing, a bad kj can make the best equipment sound like crap!

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

You can put me down for a "no" too!  

One of the reasons the "wannabees" are getting advice on putting together bargain systems is that they don't have the resources to go out and get a top notch rig.  I can identify.  It took me nearly 40 years to put together the rig I always wanted.  

Here's a fact of life that hasn't been brought up yet, and I know it won't go down well with certain of the participants here but so what; whatever rig you run, regardless of the cost, no one but you is likely to notice too much.  Once in awhile you'll run in to an audio freak who really does know but it doesn't happen often.

This is entertainment.  By it's very nature the business is all about fun.  How many of us have bought a shiny new and very expensive toy for our kids only to watch them play with the box?  

The equipment doesn't dictate how much fun one has at a karaoke show.  It's the atmosphere.  It's a KJ that's welcoming and who includes everyone and who goes to great pains to make sure everyone is having a good time.  

I have always defined professionalism as 90% attitude and 10% skill/knowledge.  I have know entertainers who were very successful despite the fact that they did not have enormous talent (singing, playing, acting ,whatever) but they made the most of the one talent they did have; they were entertaining.  I have also known some musicians who had skills that were among the best I've ever seen who will toil in obscurity because they weren't enteraining.

You can't regulate being a professional.  It's something you have or don't have.  So give the wannabees a break.

Oh, and always remember; life is way too short for diet soda and lite beer!

Larry

I disagree with the comment that nobody will notice.    Can you tell the difference between two different drinks?    How about two different cars.    Two different books?
Can you hear a difference between your car radio and an ipod?    I just had some of my junkies come in tonight and tell me about the crap they went to sing on last night.     They always, always, always tell me how different systems sound.   So if you keep thinking everyone else is tone deaf, you ain't gonna make it.    They know...... believe me..... they know.    

As a politician sure !  As a performing artist, in an area of aesthetics ? HELL no ! (sorry about that emphatic slip-up, I adamantly disagree  LMAO )

This is NEVER the case for the performing artist ! In fact I'd deem THIS as bad advice, or poor info for newbies !  I'll attempt to break down why; so you see I'm not merely a nay-sayer (or is it nae?).

I could smile, and shmooze with the best of em, but if I can't speak or play
their music WELL, I'm useless to them: THEY aren't hiring me to be "A nice guy" just shake hands, and kiss their babies, the performing artist is only a LITTLE bit politician, he also must be an artist !  If I can't supply a good sound as a musical performer, I suck~bottomline !!  You can't baffle THIS many people most of the time !  It's what you provide that they are coming to participate in, MOST of the time you are standing there, and the sound system, and someone else are the peformance for the audience, or those forced to listen.. You aren't the sole act.. you must work your equipment !






(Disregarding laws of diminishing returns, or the acoustic setup that's just TOO much for the venue you are playing, or no longer will matter because it's overkill, and just not needed, putting together something that is illusively referred to as "high-end" system requires ability to begin with, What makes something high-end is the person operating the equipment)

lbister,  you are shortchanging the percentage in your ratio regarding "Skill/Knowledge", it's not 10% IMO. ALOT more than "10% technical skill" is required, it takes a clever ear, a knack for acoustics, and enough sophistication to balance what you have, and you MUST have the skill to know how to setup, and tweak in accordance with room acoustics, layout, etc...You must set your equipment in a way that it's working OPTIMALLY and that requires understanding of room acoustics !  THAT is what makes the difference between the skilled entertainer who's running "better" or "good enough" equipment; Optimising what he has for conditions he's working under.. (High end equipment, and near "tone-deaf" DJ/KJ translates to audience earaches). [ It's not about superfluous equipment mind you, but a setup good enough for the room conditions acoustically, performers ability to hear, and provide enough to convince 90% of those (who have a decent ear for music), that will be able to discern differences (and you'll likely NEVER know who they are) that your sound or audio-blend is "decent"]  It's ALL about how adept one is at knowing his equipment, knowing how to adapt it to venue, and room layout, work acoustics with high ceilings plush curtains and carpeting, crowds of people, and deal with sound dispersion, bounce, absorbtion,  speaker placement. EQ'ing.  It's not just the tools, but how the craftsman uses them to achieve end result.. Don't assume (as Bigdog correctly stated) that your audience is hearing impaired, or less able to discern quality than yourself, that attitude is a perfect way to shoot yourself in the foot, because subconsciously, you assume you can sacrifice some element of quality, and THEY won't know !, the cycle goes on unfavorably with this type mindset, it shows, it's actually an attitude problem, People aren't generally as inept as many  performers wish they were, ( that is wishful thinking).. MOST can hear quality, especially younger folks who've not yet lost their frequency range and hearing, we old farts can't hear as much anymore   ...Towards the end of my gigging, I'd EQ for ranges I suffered to hear, not considering that the teenagers are getting an earload of bass and treble frequencies that no longer existed for me, I knew I had to call Hertz-rent-an-ear, and let someone else do what I could no longer doing, a decent performer KNOWS, what he doesn't know, and adjusts for that accordingly, when supplying entertainment, you MUST give it your best.. Collectively our audiences are MUCH smarter than us ! Since I've lost the ability to hear from standing in front of stacks for years, I took heed to others telling me, "your rattling the windows, turn it down", we are LIMITED critters, and there's never an excuse for subpar set up as those supplying entertainment.. It's a NO NO to ever assume "they can't tell the difference" in an artistic field where YOU are the performing artist.. That's "job suicide", assuming most can ever be bluffed in an area of aesthetics 90% of the time, and that type inadvertent condescension shows, believe it or not, it's a type of arrogance, and cut's thru negatively... Sure SOME don't scrutinize, or listen carefully, but those aren't the ones you need to worry about, it's the ones that DO have discerning ears that you have to rise to...Lest you aren't that good, and despite your high-end equipement, you don't sound good ! The craftsman MUST know how to use his tools !

I would never downplay the necessity of the performer who is "on his own" (with no skilled sound engineer) to have abilities of his own to mix, and setup in accordance with the room he's working in, and that's NOT easy, it does require skill and knack for acoustics !  If he is good enough to please 90% that CAN hear a difference in his optimization of equipment, if he can convince the crowd with his skill that his 20K speakers are better than my 800 dollar pair, THAT's what makes his equipment "higher-end", it's result achieved, not price tag. It's about WHY people want "higher end" audio equipment, and THAT requires knowing how to use it.. I'd say that's at least 40% of the task, NEVER only 10% !! Many that DON'T participate in your audience just happen (at times to be artists), perhaps even your undercutter, who knows, MAYBE HE has a better ear than you assumed he did, and he's pointed that out to your boss ! Even WE musicians, often talk with and know the bar owner too !!!, if he asks us how you sound, and you aren't VERY good sounding, we tell it like it is meaning, "You can't mix"....

NOW, the complimenting percentage, or the additional 60% that might make or brake the person furnishing entertainment IS personality, social ability, or just how much he likes people, adjunct with how good an entertainer he is, and that completes a package, technical ability IS a must !  Karaoke (unlike we musicians who just get up in front of an audience, and perform with limited individuals) is interactive, EVERYONE becomes your lead singer, you've got to be adaptable...  That's really tough too...  I'd change your stat's to

40% clever acoustical engineering skill and discerning ear
60%  Ability to adapt, and work a venue where everyone essentially is your      
         bandmate.

The term "High end equipment" is specious in this context, because the equipment NEVER run's itself !  High end, is what makes you sound the best you can in the venue you perform in.. "Costly" equipment might not do you justice in certain cases.

JMO



Yep, and the entertainment evolves around what area of aesthetics ?  Sound !! Musical blend. It's not just for the person who's on stage.  There are MANY listening at that same time !



No, It's something we learn, it's a process of becoming, Maintaining, and evolving !Not an innate "propensity". It's conditioning. It's why we go to school, why some are audio engineers, and why others are car mechanics... You are a professional in YOUR area of work, and in this case it's the audio field ! This is what YOU do, and you most learn what a professional entertainer is, what the crowd wants, etc..In tougher areas, it's why others go to school, or need to study even harder and longer !  The "Best" however, or in my case what we refer to as "musicians, musicians" know how to work the whole package meaning Equipment, crowd, and they have the maturity/disposition (in this case "sage") to appear grounded in any situation they are apt to enter into, period !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

My apologies to all.  My comments may not have been as specific as they should have been.

On the issue of professionalism.  I agree completely that one cannot aspire to any level of professionalism without a certain degree of talent and/or skill.  My point was that it is what one does with that skill that matters.  And that, it seems to me, is largely a function of attitude.  I should have made that clear.

I was also not as clear as I should have been with regard to my suggestion that people don't know what they are listening too.  Experienced singers certainly do.  And I would expect Big Dogs "junkies" to be knowlegeable as well.  

But I do believe that the vast majority of average listeners are not particularly demanding when it comes to the quality of the sound.  I would suggest that evidence of that can be found in the volume of stereo equipment that is sold by Target and Wal-Mart.  

I would agree that an average listener could tell the difference between a 10,000 sound system and a $1,500 sound system if he listened to them side by side.  The average listener is not going to want to listen to a sound systm that has significant feedback problems.  That having been said, I think the average listener is more concerned with the quality of the performance than he is in the absolute quality of the sound system.  

Just so I'm completely clear here, I would like it to be understood that I'm talking not talking about the extremes.  Rather, there is a more limited range that the majority of performances might fall into.  Within that range I don't think the average listener is particularly discerning when it comes to the question of how much is the enjoyment of the performance affected by the quality of the sound system.  I don't believe that everyone is tone deaf nor did I mean to implay that.

As far as how all of this affects me I can only say this; I strive for the best performance and sound quality that I can deliver every time.  All of my equipment is far superior to what I was using when I first started out.  And my technical expertise is better too.  So I still strive for the best that I am capable of delivering.

Larry

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"Life is too short for diet soda and lite beer"

WOW!  That was some reading!  I wouldn't know who to agree with.  But even if this isn't in the direction you are going, here is my opinion.
Most singers know when it is a good system or not.  And the ones that do understand, and CAN hear are the ones that are going to follow you with that great system.  The ones that follow the "Target or Walmart" system, in my own opinion aren't really serious about Karaoke.  They think they are good, and just want to sing as many songs as they can to burden our ears on any system that will allow them to do that.  And  that would be the crappy sytems that have no great following.  I have to agree to some extent with BigDog when it comes to how well you run the system you have.  If it is shoddy, then so will your singers be.  But you need to know how to RUN it.  The better investment is well worth the rewards.  I don't know about you, but I would rather hear singers that know what they are doing, sound good, and know "I" new enough about the system to make them sound that good!

I don't and never have attracted the screaming drunk crowd.   This seems to be most people's idea of what karaoke really is.   A bunch of screaming drunks.    Karaoke leaves a bad taste in people's mouths, because of them.    Kinda like all bikers aren't Hell's Angels.   But you can't tell that to everybody.   WE have been stigmatised by our forefathers of karaoke.    Everyone including many bar owners today still think "karaoke" Means screaming drunks and crappy equipment.      I can still tell when it's 5 minutes before I start.    Because everyone that believes it's going to be nothing but a bunch of screaming drunks on a SH**TY system, leaves.    We are fighting an uphill battle to change the way we are preceived, 15 years later.    

If the screaming drunk crowd is the audience you want to attract, then the quality of the equipment doesn't matter.   It's all going to sound the same "BAD" anyway.    Mixing isn't a factor.   You won't need effects.    NO skill required, just play the songs.   It won't matter about the quality of the discs, mikes, amp, mixer, speakers.    If I had to listen to that all night, I wouldn't be in business now.    My nights are fun because It all sounds good.   Even the bad singers are tolerable.    I couldn't and wouldn't do it any other way.   Music still involves artistic talent.     Art is involved in many of our trades and crafts.     It takes a lot of artistic talent to work with molten metal .    Try making it hang upside down.    I worked with pipefitters, millwrights, carpenters, electricians, etc.    The best ones had some artistic talent and tendencies.    The worst ones still can't color and stay in the lines.

Mixing is an art, just as singing or playing an instrument.    That is why bands have sound men.    Just as important as the guy playing.    He brings it altogether into the final mix.    So one guitar isn't over powering the entire group.   You have to have an ear for it.     I have a girl that sings really well, but on some songs she ends up off key.    A really good singer would know they are off key and correct the problem.   She doesn't hear it or she doesn't know how to correct it.     I had another guy that wanted to start a band.   He thought he was God's gift to singers.   One night every song he sang was off key.   He knew it, but he couldn't get any of them right.    Could he be a lead singer in a band?    Maybe in his band but, not in my band.     The point is, some people will be good KJs and some won't, because they don't have the ear for it.   It's not their fault, but that's the way it goes.

I agree about the "screaming drunks".  I think one of the difficulties I am encountering regarding karaoke is that I wish that I could attend one of the shows that the members of this forum put on.  The attitudes you all express are 180 degrees different than any show I've seen so far.  

Actually, I may get to see one of Big Mike's shows soon so I might have the opportunity to see what a karaoke show is supposed to be.

As far as I am aware, there aren't many places around where I live that are "karaoke" bars.  Most of the ones I know about feature karaoke as an alternative to their live music nights with bands.  The other thing is that the bar owners around here seem to be completely indifferent to the idea of marketing their product.  They expect that people are going to come from miles around to see whatver is going on.  The only thing they do to publicize their entertainment is to hang up a few posters a week or so before the event.  So, for the most part people who are dedicated karaoke singers don't know about these events and don't attend.

Consequently, the shows I've seen have taken place with, by and large, the usual crowd.  There are people in those groups who can and do sing and do it well.  There are others who get up to sing and who aren't very good but who really enjoy what they are doing.  Those people are fun.

Then there are those who wouldn't think of singing in public until they've been overserved to the extent that all they are capable of doing is screaming into the mic.

Generally speaking the first couple of hours are fun.  Then the fun parts are interspersed with the not-so-fun parts.

I'm really looking forward to seeing Big Mike and getting a different perspective on this.

Larry

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"Life is too short for diet soda and lite beer"