Karaoke Forums

James,

You asked "why should a download be any different?" the answer is simple because the publishers do not license downloads in the same way as physical discs. Hench the worldwide EXCEPT the US and Canada clause in the PRS contract.


LOML+ covers the performing and mechanical rights in musical works for most types of online music services (including karaoke) that offer music to the UK public. This includes download services, music streaming sites and subscription music services.

anyone can use the contact us link on the following page
http://www.prsformusic.com/users/broadc ... fault.aspx

to ask and receive an email explaining that the contract only covers the UK and specifically excludes use in the USA.

It should also be noted that each KJ/DJ is required to pay a yearly fee to PRS in order to be covered as well.

Kjflorida: you are missing my point entirely

I'm not disputing that downloads aren't licensed for commerical use in the US or Canda.. As a matter of fact neither are karaoke discs .. What I am saying is is is IRRELIVANT HOW the download is licenced just as it is irrelivant how a disc is licensed.

Once it is purchased, what makes that karaoke music legal to use in a commercial endevour is the PERFORMANCE license, which is not our responsibility.

I could take a disc that a company had stolen from the publishers directly, play it in a show and the publishers can't touch me. Why because the bar is paying the proper fees for karaoke. If they want to sue someone, they have to go after the publisher that produced the disk, which they have in the past.

It doesn't make one iota of difference, in my opinion and like I said, until a LEGAL AUTHORITY tells me otherwise, I would continue to use overseas downloads.

If i had the money to hire a lawyer, I would.

jclayton,

No disrespect intended and I understand what you are clarifying. I have paid a IP specialist attorney to research this exact issue. What she reported to me was that it is MY responsibility to insure the music I use in my business is licensed for use here in the USA or I could be sued for vicarious liability or served a cease and desist.

My wife (Athena) then started searching every download site and checking on licensing. She did find the 2 companies that appear to be paying for the proper licensing per the publishers. Most of the download sites do have "home use only" listed on the sites. Some have it very well hidden and a few out and out lie. When you research deeper you find they are using PRS LOML+. The venues paying PRO fees does not make those songs legal.

kjflorida,
I am sure you did hire a lawyer and I am sure you got the advise\result you say you did. It would pretty much make sense that a lawyer would give you that advise. I am sure many would. But it doesn't make it black and white as this is a very gray area. A Lawyer would be remiss to tell you it's OK when it's never been proven to be OK or not, with regard to the download sources outside the US. They have to give you the safest answer they can. Otherwise they would be liable if they gave you an answer that you went with that was later proved wrong.
In the end, the "proof" is really in the pudding. Digitrax is the first US based site I know of that is US based and going after the pro user as well as the home user. We can see how much of a fight it is getting the licenses for the US. Other countries make that process easier for the download sites and that has to be a key reason they are there and doing well. In the end, the royalties get paid on the purchase and the royalties get paid in the US venues for performance. There really isn't a lot for anyone to complain about so the question isn't tested and gray remains gray. If it were an issue, the sites would be who the copyright holders go after, not people who paid and bought the tracks. The producers learned the lesson with regard to blowing up their own customers years ago and that's a dirt road I doubt you ever see them going down again.
So while you may have gotten the "correct" advise, it may not be the best advise for others.

Just a few questions for everyone to think about.

Currently 2 US manufactures are contacting publishers and paying for commercial legal download rights at a much higher rate than PRS has negotiated. How do you feel this will effect the situation worldwide when the contract is re negotiated ?

During the last negotiations the specific exclusion of commercial use in the USA and Canada was added. Do you think that the US publishers are paying attention to those companies that are refusing to abide by the contract ?

It appears that the PRS contracts run for about 5 years. Do you think that the cost per track licensing will stay at the lower rate contracted or be increased to the larger amount the US manufactures pay during re negotiation ?

Do you think those large increases will be absorbed by the overseas manufacturers or passed on to the consumers as a price increase ?

If overseas manufactures are forced to pay much higher fees will they continue to produce as many tracks or will they decrease production as a cost saving measure ?

First, I'd like to know how "commercial use" is being licensed other than maybe for private gigs? The proper term has always really been "public performance" and it's never had anything to do with whether someone is paid or not. It doesn't matter if Joe Schmoe at table six happens to plug his ipod into some external speakers, the venue is required to have paid their public performance fees or the venue is in violation of the songwriter's rights.
I found this on Karaoke Version's site:
Use for public events
We are happy to allow the use of our soundtracks for public audiences and other performances.
However, we'd like to remind you that in order to be legally compliant, you must receive an official agreement from your national music rights management office (PRS For Music in the UK for example).
In the case of a non-commercial private event, use of soundtracks is, of course, allowed and unrestricted.
And this comes from BMI:
http://www.bmi.com/news/entry/20050127_ ... siness_own
An exert..
"One business expense occasionally overlooked by owners of karaoke bars and clubs is their responsibility to compensate songwriters," said Tom Annastas, BMI Vice President, General Licensing. "Virtually all popular songs are copyrighted and can't be legally played in public without permission of the songwriter. BMI can provide businesses an annual license authorizing the performance of songs from 300,000 songwriters and publishers. Without such permission," Annastas cautioned, "a business owner featuring karaoke likely is infringing on copyrights and may expose the establishment to litigation."

According to these two major players, It's fine to buy the tracks from Karaoke-Version and it's fine to play them in a bar as long as the bar has paid their performing rights fees.

As for how the PSR\US download licensing plays out, I think all sides will ease up quite a bit and make the process easier\less expensive. After all, DJs have been buying\downloading and using music tracks in bars\public for years now. Why would producers be so stupid as to not accept the fees for karaoke downloads as well?

Until any of this takes place, the answers are all speculative though we all understand the pricing could go up. I am going to continue to use them as long as it is cost effective.

-Chris

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-Chris

MrBoo,

Where do we contact our "National music rights management office"? If I understand your point you are saying that as long as BMI/ASCAP/SESAC are all paid by the venues everyone is covered,The PRS contract for licensing however specifically excludes the USA and Canada. Have you contacted BMI/ASCAP/SESAC directly and asked about those tracks specifically ? I have.

To all involved in this discussion,

I feel I have contributed enough to this discussion and am tired of beating a dead horse. Every KJ here has to make decisions based on the amount of risk they are willing to take. I have made mine, you make yours, we each pay for our decisions.

Actually NO download sites- including those listed above- will include documentation for LICENSED use by U.S. based karaoke hosts for their shows- because none are. They may or may not be licensed to download tracks, but NO currently available popular download site can give licensing for anything but home use- it simply does not exist.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Speculation!

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It is speculation because there is nothing black and white when it comes to karaoke. But, Yes, BMI handles the performance part that PRS handles in the UK. PRS handles all the same functions as BMI. They handle public performance and broadcast just like BMI. The difference is they also handle licensing for publishers as well. In the US, companies like Digitracks and disc makers have to negotiate with each publisher. What a pain in the a$$ that must be and it's a huge reason why people take their companies overseas. If there is a difference in a disc license, download license, lyrics, license; that's between the publishers and the karaoke producers. If the producer is doing something wrong, it's on the publishers to go after them and their produce would be removed from the "shelves".

If Karaoke-Version pays for and acquires the PRS licenses to produce, say, a Bruce Springsteen song. The publisher gets their part from PRS; right; even if the publishers are in the US? If a disc company pays for and acquires the licenses to produce the same song the publisher still gets paid, correct? So can someone, for the love of God, please tell me why the publisher is going to care if it came from a disc or download? If they didn't like the deal then they shouldn't have negotiated the PRS licensing contract that Karaoke-Version abides by.

If I buy that download and play it in a bar, and the songwriter\song is covered with BMI the songwriter gets his cut. If I buy a disc and play it in a bar, and the songwriter\song is covered with BMI the songwriter gets his cut. So can someone, for the love of God, please tell me why the songwriter is going to care if it came from a disc or download?

So where am I wrong in my thinking here?

buy a song on disc made in U.S. : publisher gets paid
buy a song on disc made in U.K. : publisher gets paid
buy a song on download from U.S. : publisher gets paid
buy a song on download from U.K. : publisher gets paid
no public performance rights are covered at all here.

play a song on disc made in U.S. : ASCAP, SESAC, BMI need to be paid
play a song on disc made in U.K. : ASCAP, SESAC, BMI need to be paid
play a song on download from U.S. : ASCAP, SESAC, BMI need to be paid
play a song on download from U.K. : ASCAP, SESAC, BMI need to be paid
now public performance rights are covered.

Pay ASCAP, SESAC, BMI to play a song on disc made in U.S. : rights holder gets paid
Pay ASCAP, SESAC, BMI to play a song on disc made in U.K. : rights holder gets paid
Pay ASCAP, SESAC, BMI to play a song from download made in U.S. : rights holder gets paid
Pay ASCAP, SESAC, BMI to play a song from download made in U.K. : rights holder gets paid

who gets screwed how? my conscience is clear.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Easy as pie to prove me wrong. All that's needed is a copy of any license anywhere allowing U.S. based Karaoke Hosts to use downloads as the basis for a U.S. based show from or in conjunction with publishers/owners ( a download site that says "we don't care what you do" doesn't mean anything).

Even Jim H. has agreed with what I said, but feel free to post a copy of what you find...

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Show me the disc licenses are just as ok! Good faith purchase is just as good with a download as with a disc.

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Show me the disc licenses are just as ok! Good faith purchase is just as good with a download as with a disc.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!