Karaoke Forums

IMO, the thing that hurts karaoke the most, is that the number of possible singers has a limit. If you can do 60 songs in a four hour hit, and you have 40 singers(sure, duets help), that's only one song for 20, and two songs for the other 20 with a one and a half hour wait in between turns. If you are a good KJ, you will attract singers, but after the number grows, they will go somewhere else, where they can sing more. It's like you get punished for running a good show. I think this is one reason karaoke hasn't gotten even bigger. In my experience, there are more singers than listeners in the karaoke crowd. What else holds karaoke back?

No matter how good the show, or how much I like a KJ... if the rotation is so long that I only get a couple songs a night, I go elsewhere. Call me stingy, but when I go out to sing, I want to sing.

(added in... as long as the shorter rotation venue doesn't have a plastic mic and tin can speakers, Lmao)

I like listening to my friends as well, I'm not saying I should be the only one singing, but I can't stand really long rotations.

A large crowd, with only about 10-12 people getting up to sing, is ideal:) hahaha

Our town is screaming out for more karaoke venues, it's gotten very popular here and we only have 2. (besides the VW hall) If I had the funds, I'd start one myself.


Perhaps when rotation gets that large- and stays that way on a steady basis- they should start karaoke earlier? Surely both the bar and the KJ would benefit?

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Good topic Johnny!

I've been getting frustrated lately that my people (singers) don't get to sing more on busy nights. They have been patient with the fact that over the past few years it has gotten busier and the chance to sing is 2 or 3 times if that on a busy night.  

The only reason my die hard regulars stick around now, in my opinion, is the atmosphere. As you know our group is friendly. Everyone knows everyone and welcomes new singers with open arms. For instance when one of our regulars recently passed away 14 or more people showed up to the memorial service from our bar. The man who passed away was only a regular for less than a year. I think that says a lot about the people who come to the show and how tight knit we are.

I've been seriously considering having duets count as one turn for both singers on Fridays. I don't know how much this will actually help because we don't seem to get many duets any more. Maybe one or two a night. Mainly because no one wants to give up their turn for a duet. Right now a duet means, one person of the 2 gives up their turn in rotation.

I think I also need to announce that Saturdays and Wednesdays are less busy. The problem with this is sometimes those nights can get just as busy.

I used to be able to squeeze last minute people in at the end of the night. That seems to be changing too. If I have people who have been waiting 2 hours to sing I can't put a person in who just walked in the door just because I'm closing.

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There is a certain optimal number of singers that makes karaoke work.

Less than about 10 singers then you have to sing more than 4-5 songs a night. Some people will leave and the music will end up stopping sometimes.

Some may enjoy the opportunity, but sometimes it colapses to just a rotation of 2-4 singers, and that gets old fast. Especially if most of the few people left go outside to smoke between their turns. Singing to the bartender and maybe one other is not the real Karaoke experience.

More than about 50 singers, and you might not get to sing or will have to wait a long time.

Certainly that puts a limit on the size of crowds in the bar.

I have seen karaoke work ok with about 150-200 people or more, about 1/3 singers. But my best experience as a singer has been with about 40 people, 30 of them singers, 20 wishing to sing multiple songs.

I also have the experience that too many listeners in the crowd changes the experience. I know of some places where a lot of the crowd dances to the songs as well and that gets the whole crowd involved. Even so I would say the optimum crowd size is  no less than 15 no more than 100.

Sure you can have karaoke before a crowd of thousands but it is not the same, that is a performance not a shared experience.

I've always contended the thoughts, If you have a great show and the singers flock to your venue ...even  the BEST KJ won't be able to satisfy the Karaoke JUNKIES.
So they do find somewhere else to sing .... OH they'll run into the same problem in other bars ..... But most people want to sing at LEAST 3 songs if not more and don't want to wait 1hour between songs.  The problem is the MOST songs you'll get in a night is 60 give or take a song or two .... AND THATS WITH NO DANCE OR FILLER OF ANY KIND !!!!  So how do you satisfy the JUNKIES and still bring in enough people to ring the register $$$$$?    HOW ?

I think you can do a little bit of both. I want to sing, so that means I won't wait hours to do so. There is nothing for me in a bar, I am just there to sing.  If it is more than an hour to wait, I am out of there.

My favorite is the rare occasions when you have a medium-sized rotation (12 or so) of mostly decent singers. People seem to feed on each other and that is a real good time.

I love to watch good singers, so if there is a place where you have lots of them I would love to show up there. I know of none here, though I would think in some areas like Nashville or LA you might find something like that.

I now have had plenty of occasions to listen to lots of bad singers, and that is no fun for me at all. I just don't go to those places unless I get to sing a lot. Even then, sometimes not, if the sound is not good.

For a host, I think you can try to specialize in bad singers. Concentrate on the entertainment and atmosphere, and pick the right location. But you have to be really good, I think, or be in incredibly fertile ground. I saw one in Philly who seems to do that -- his singers were all bad but they loved it. He seemed to drive away the good singers by 1) refusing to play their disks and 2) refusing to do key changes. More power to him, if he can make it work for him. I don't live there, but I wouldn't go to his show often.

The KJ business is a vicious circle:
1st and foremost the KJ's job is to provide Karaoke Entertainment for the paying patrons of the establishment.    The hope of the owner is that more and more people will come in and spend money to sing or listen - The more people that come in and sing the less each singer gets to sing.   The less each singer gets to sing the more unsatisfied they become.    YIKES

Mckyj, your best bet, if you want to sing all the time is buy a home system, then you don't have to wait to sing.

We've had rotations anywhere from 4-40.  That's the nature of the beast.  Those who don't want to wait are free to go wherever they want.  It matters not to us.  The more singers the more people, the more the bar makes AND that is the bottom line.  We use original discs (over 23,000 selections, 16,000+ non-repeats, aquired over 15 years or so) and a kickass Yorkville sound system.  People all over the world go away very impressed.  We are laid back with costumes and instruments and run a consistant rotation.  There is a reason why people will wait and sing.  Because for those 3 or 4 minutes, those singers are stars and no matter how many times you sing at home, you will NEVER get that feeling.  It is an experience to be enjoyed in it's entirety.

As professionals we have to try to make sure everyone is happy, singer and non-singer alike, and especially the venue owners.  They don't make any money, we are no longer employed.

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Don't think I haven't. I have spent more thousands than my wife cares to know about on disks and equipment. I can sing to myself plenty. Like any performer, I want to perform for people. I may be just a karaoke singer, but that is what I want to do. Sue me.


Exactly -- it takes care of itself. It looks to me like karaoke is pretty stable now, even if it isn't the "good old days" for hosts. These things are cyclical -- bands were swearing at karaoke a couple of years ago from what I see, and that has passed somewhat.

The hosts who advertise 60,000 songs will have to pay the piper eventually. Some of them put on a pretty nice show, by the way, having been to a few that I *know* are using downloaded songs but which have excellent sound and a lively host.

If they want to sleep well at night, I recommend spending the $10,000 it takes to get your library legal and up to snuff. It is cheap at that price. (I know, I am preaching to the choir.)

The hosts who lambast singers for just doing what is natural -- wanting to sing -- are in my opinion sniping at their customers. If you treat people like interchangeable bozos, your karma comes back to haunt you. Karaoke is about people singing, and hosts who forget that are probably hurting now that karaoke has matured somewhat. If they treat people like they are secondary to "their show", I bet they suffer nowadays.

Excuse me while I leave and go spend $50 for my wife and my dinner -- at my favorite karaoke show. That host I know appreciates me, and I will keep on going to his show which is in it's fourth year as I understand. Do I get to sing as much as I want? Never. But it sounds good and if I go early I get a couple extra in.

To me there are no bad singers, just some better than others. No matter how good you think you are, there is always someone better, which at the right venue, can make you the worst singer there.... (been there). I find that close to 99% of the singers are entertaining. Maybe they can't carry a tune to perfection, but they have a pleasant sounding voice. Maybe they have some entertaining moves, funny gestures, or maybe they're just a fine looking specimen of the opposite gender(art appreciation.. ). Sometimes they just pick a great song, and it doesn't matter how good they sing it, especially if the crowd sings along. It's all good to me, but getting back to the topic, while a KJ can happily satisfy up to 30 singers, a DJ can keep hundreds of dancers, and listeners very satisfied. From my observations, these dancers work up a thirst, and seem to drink plenty of alcohol, while I've noticed plenty of singers who drink coffee, water, and pop at little or no cost. Even if an owner charges a lucrative price on the three(which I don't see too often), seems you can drink a lot more of the alcohol drinks, than the non-alcohol ones. Many places really don't sell enough food, to make up the inequity. Anyway, IMO, these are some things that can make karaoke fail. If you are a great, non-famous singer, rest assured, people are not comming there to hear you, they are comming to be heard, and to hear their friends and loved ones sing. And if their friends and family get drunk, and make fools of themselves up on stage, then they have awesome memories to bring up, anytime they want to put someone in there place....

Bingo.

I don't think people are coming to see me. I think I am completely irrelevant other than a slight tendency for people to continue to come to places that aren't all bad singers.

That being said, there is one venue I go to which has a sizable spectator crowd of non-singers that regularly attend. I think I may be a miniscule part of that, but I am probably wrong.

We're gonna have to check your card..... ....I meant nothing personal to anyone, but there are singers like that, and they're usually the KJ.... ...in my opinion, and in my experiences....doesn't make it true... ....pay no attention to the man behind the curtain......

Now if there happens to be more singers than you like, will you stay and support your favourite host or leave and go somewhere else.



You have to be joking about that one.  Anyone who hosts or attends karaoke, for any length of time, knows there are bad singers.  That said, a good host will allow anyone up as long as they do not abuse equipment.

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WE use rotation by tables and not by the number of singers. Thus the maximum rotation length is fixed by the number of tables in the places.

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Of course it's a fixed number of songs performed per night.  What most are talking about are how many individual singers.  So if there are like 40 individual singers, the average based on 4 minutes per song on a 4 hour show is 60 songs, then 40 singers will sing 1 song & 20 of the 40 will be able to sing a 2nd song.

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Let me explain;

table No,3 have 6 people 3 are singers. Per rotation only one of the 3 can sing. The person who foot the bill for the table will sing the most; or if he/she does not sing then he/she can choose who among the 3 should sing the most. Duet will give all the 3 better chance to sing.

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Doesn't really apply to me. I am almost always among the first ones there, so I almost always stay for some period of time. I tend to be there before it gets crowded. My money is spent early -- if you get me to order my dinner, you have got my wad.

As it turns out, if it is one of my regular shows I have probably never left because it was too crowded. I may have left a bit earlier than normal and gone home. But it is not because I am planning on supporting the host -- I would have no qualms about walking out if I happened to feel like it.  I support the host by showing up week in and week out and spending money -- if that isn't good enough, they should 86 me.

Now if I could get a host to support me by letting me sing more than everyone else.....


It isn't just the bad singers. I don't mind hearing a bad singer doing a new or different song. It is hearing the same old songs over and over and over again. "Turn The Page", which was once one of my favorite songs, is now one of my least favorite. There was a rendition tonight that was excruciating, and it is so long that it resembles torture to have someone belting the last couple of verses out. I would never consider doing that song myself -- there are too many other great songs that no one does.

I believe this may be part of why karaoke has changed. It used to be new and different to lots of people to have a drunk get up and belt out an off-key "Sweet Caroline", or "Turn The Page", I bet. It probably is still new to the few people who haven't seen karaoke. But those numbers are getting smaller and smaller every year now. You can't keep people entertained with that stuff anymore.

Karaoke has changed, in its ( USA )infancy it was a "novelty" where if you had the nerve and enough alcohol you would get up in front of your friends and sing a song and for the majority it was their 1st time ever singing in public.  People were content to sing 1 or maybe 2 songs.  Today with the novelty gone and the emerence of such hit shows like American Idol - EVERYONE wants to come out and strut there stuff.
Which is GREAT , people are singing at HOME, buying there own libaries and the majority of singers are more sophisticated then in the past. (oh sure you will always have your drunken karaoke virgins).   The average Karaoke Show needs to evolve and change to be able to accomodate this evolution.  HOW to CHANGE is the question and dilema - Singers want to be able to sing MORE - KJS want to be able to CHARGE MORE and OWNERS want to make more money !!

KJ's need to keep everyone HAPPY ( Owners -SIngers - NON SIngers )
It takes singers and non singers to make a venue profitable - I would argue that a venue can turn a profit with JUST karaoke singers .....

Now come up with ideas for the Karaoke Show of the FUTURE

Singers would you pay $1 per song to sing ? - Sing as much as you like Heck you're paying !!!!  - WHy not?  you'll pay $2 a song for the digital juke box?

Something has to change to keep karaoke a mainstream entertainment for BARS etc.