Karaoke Forums

No it's not the only answer, but they are mostly all cdg compatible & generally make better burns.  But the blank media also plays a large factor as well.  Once you get a burner that works without any glitches on cheap media, try Mitsui Gold blanks & you will have a back up that will last for years - i've had many that I backed up in '97 that are still playing pefectly today.  Most cheap burns you have to reburn several times over time.

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Lonman, regarding your last comment, I am concerned about backing up my song library.  Maybe this is overkill, but this is what I plan to do.

Burn one CD-Rom copy for each disk.   Put entire library of disks on two external hard drives.  Backup the external hard drive(s) with a copy on DVD.

Are you suggeting I can count on problems at some point with the Office Depot CD-R's disks?  I have used Office Depot DVD's when I created the System Recovery disks in the past, but never needed them.  I just made a set for the new laptop.  

Is there any data available that supports the proposition that one brand lasts significantly longer than the other?  Considering the work that will go into backing up my library, I don't want to find out later on that the effort was in vain.

Man this is borderline bootlegging!  I can see 1 copy as a back up, on one format or another, but more than that.... .



For cdg's, yeah I anticipate you having problems with the Office Depot discs.  I tried them, while a couple worked, I had more coasters than working copies.  They are fine for general data, maybe music, but for the underlying subcode, they are probably the worst you can get.  Ever hold one up to the light?  You can see clearly through them, very thin media.  If they are for storage purpose, it would be worth the little extra & get something that will last.  Again, i've had some in storage & in active use since 97 without even a glitch over this time.  Most of the cheap off the shelf media i've had to reburn sometimes several times within a year - depending on useage.



I'm only going by personal experiance, but have never had to replace the gold disc yet.  Here is their website & the process.
http://www.mam-a.com/products/gold/index.html

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I am calling ya on this one Lon....
I got a set generic CDRs that are over 6 yo, and still work good.  They are backups, and probably only get used for a minute about once or twice a year.  Perhaps if they had continual use, they may wear out.  But backups should only be used a few time in the life of the disc, unless you are continualy screwing up your computer.

MAM-A's  determining factor of the life of a generic CDR as compared to thier gold CDRs, is exposure to DIRECT sunlingt, and EXTERME heat and humidity.  I would then assume, unless you store your CDRs in a glass sauna in the middle of a desert, I'll stick with the cheapies.  For me I store them in a jewel case in a box, on the bottom shelf of my computer desc.  No light, or extreme heat/humidity.

But if a $1.30 per disc for a peice of mind is worth it, by all means invest in the Gold CDRs.

But on the other hand.....

GOLD CDRs bulk pack of 100 for $135 = $2.08 per GB of storage

Maxtor 300 GB external hard drive $140 (NewEgg) = $0.47 per GB of storage

Or is my math not right?

I think the external USB hard drive is the BEST backup device.  I have a coulpe hard drives that are over 10 YO, and still in use.  Heck I still have some casette tapes from the old Commodore Vic/c64 that still have data stored on them, that was from back in the aerly 80s.  Both are magnetic storage mediums.

Well it also depends on the brand of the cheap media too though.  If it was a decent quality to begin with - Memorex, Verbitin (have had some good success with these), Maxell, yeah they may last in storage.  The Office Depot brand he mentioned, I bought them thinking the same thing & they are literally nothing but a 100 disc spindle of coasters waiting to happen.  

I agree with the hard drive being the better storage option all around - hell these days you can buy hard drives big enough to store all your discs  in an uncompressed format & still be cheaper than than buying all the blank discs (even the cheapies) to use for storage.

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Lonman, I doubt that someone making a bootleg copy worries about how long they will last?!

True if you are doing it to go multi rigging (1 set for multiple rigs) or sell the copies, but if it is truly for archival purposes, then for discs, me personally I would spend the extra & get something I know would last.  But as stated, with the price of hard drives as low as they are, i'd probably put all my discs on hard drive in an uncompressed format for archiving & not bother with blanks at all.

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Math is good, logic stinks.  Hard drives hold information as magnetic flux which is about as stable as I am on a bad Saturday night.  However, I agree with you about the cheap CDR's, just make sure to check the copys.

Exweed... are you suggesting that the copies be checked upon production or rather at intervals down the road?  And if they are good copies, how long do you think they'll last in the right environment. Keep in mind I don't plan to use them.

I do know a local KJ has found that disks stored in her garage, here in S Florida, have not faired well, at all.

You should check each disc as they are done, at the very least the last couple tracks as these are the ones that will tend to not copy as well for some reason.  If you just check randomly, you may not get good results, each disc is going to copy differently, there may be a barely visable scratch that will screw up an entire copy.  The more used an original disc is, the more vunerable to graphic garble, although the cdg reader & program used will have some say into how well a disc will transfer.

I've had copies on cheap media go bad in storage and I knew for fact they were good copies before I stored them - always checked each disc before putting away.  Stored in slimline jewel cases in a closet & some of them are no longer useable without being played in under 2 years time.  Guess it's all dependant on the media you use, the burner & program you use.

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I think we are all over thinking this....

IMHO....Just but an external hard drive, put your songs on it, and store it in a cool dry place.  Probably the same place you would keep your home PC.  Why mess around burring discs and checking, that takes a heck of a lot of time.

For $140, just get a external hard drive.  5 years down the road there will be somthing better anyway, and then you can transfer it to that medium.

In theory, even a cheap CDR will keep information forever because the act of burning physically alters the disk.  That's in theory mind you.  But you can't tell if a cheap CDR disk will be better or worse in two years time than the non-cheap CDR.  The manufactures didn't wait two years to put the things on the market.  The optical quality of the plastic might change over time or the tiny layer that got blasted away by the CD burner might degrade.  You lands and pits and be for sh..s for any number of reasons.  On the other hand, hard drives may die of heat, sticksion, cold solders with age, any strong EM source, from storms, ESD from your hands, an out of whack electric motor, spilling beer on it (happens to me a lot).  

If you are just copying files that are already on your computer, just make sure that the file size is the same on the CD and harddrive when you're done.  That's not 100% sure but it's pretty good and saves time.

All right guys.  You're all right!  And I'm sticking with what I said, originally, I intend to do:
         1.  transfer all disks to an external hard drive
         2.  burn copies of each disk for a backup set of disks
         3.  make a dup of the hard drive on a second external hard drive
         4.  copy the hard drive (at some point) to DVD's

Now, simply put, it would take a major natural disaster to destroy every version of my library.

We, as collectors of music, can now take all of these steps because of how really inexpensive the technology has become.   I am not, for one second, worried about copyright laws when it comes to protecting my investment, which is now in the thousands.  This backup will cost very little.  I will need to have the two drives at any show I end up doing; they weren't purchased just for storage/backup.  One external hard drive will run the show and the other will be in the wings if the first fails.   So what is my cost for the extensive backup I plan?  It's the cost of the media.  And if the cheaper backup disk degrade in storage, I'll burn another one from the hard drive, if need be.  In actuality, I may never need to play the CD again.
         
And as Twansenne suggested, 5 years down the road I'll probably have to transfer the whole thing to the newest, more reliable storage medium.

One other thing you may want to think about is keeping copies or originals of your paid receipts.

Kelly

Kelly, that's a good idea.  For me, at least a 1/4 to 1/3 of what I owned was purchased when I never considered karaoke to be anything but a hobby.  I'd guess I'd be lucky to have specific receipts for 1/2 of my collection.  

I am going to go back, however, and look at old credit card statements for things I might have purchased on-line.  The receipts for anything I purchased years ago at local stores are probably long gone.  I guess the best thing for me is to hope that my originals never get physically destroyed or stolen?

Still think it is OVER KILL.  But if you feel better doing that, go for it.

But perhaps you better double each backup method, and store the 2nd set offsite.

Ahhh....just ribbing ya, but I still think it is OVER KILL.

Thanks Twansenee

I hadn't thought of that.  Of course, I'd have to quit my daytime job and retire now.  What's so bad about that?  Hmmm?

I went digital several months ago.

It's SO much better than trying to use the bar's ancient karaoke machine.  That thing takes upwards of a minute or 2 sometimes to read discs.

I have been running the crippled trial version of RoxBox on a non-dedicated (originally bought to do non-karaoke work on) Dell Inspiron 700m laptop.  I bought the thing for ~$1200 about 2 years ago.  For reference, it does great with Photoshop CS and all kinds of stuff running, but just barely runs Half-Life 2 by itself.  (Definitely not a gaming machine... but that's what my desktop is for.)

* 1.6GHz Pentium processor
* 1GB RAM
* NEC 6500A DVD+-RW drive
* integrated Intel 82852/82855 GM/GME graphics chip (extended desktop via S-Video)
* integrated audio
* 40GB internal drive (applications only)

+400GB SimpleTech external drive (music only)
~$100(?) after rebates at Circuit City a few months ago

I use Power CD+G Burner to backup my discs as mp3+cdg.

Our setup is kind of ghetto (the venue is really set up for bands, not karaoke).  I just hook my laptop up to their sound equipment, and there is one small TV onstage for singers.  No monitors for the audience.  The club's [wired] mics are fairly high quality, though.

The laptop runs RoxBox fine.  The only time I've had a crash, skipping, etc is when I was ripping a disc with Power CD+G Burner at the same time.  When the current song ended and the next began, the audio wouldn't play (but the WinAmp equalizer levels looked active).  Every song did that until I uninstalled and reinstalled WinAmp.  (Then it worked fine again.)  Now I just avoid running anything other than maybe Firefox and/or Notepad while doing shows.  I keep Karaoke Builder CD+G Player on hand as a backup in case that ever happens again (it was what I used the first night I went all digital, actually), but it's a pain to use since I have to do a cloned desktop instead of extended with it.

I keep a rotation list up on a big magnet board propped up on an easel, but our nights are getting busy enough that I'm starting to get confused when upcoming people walk up without slips to ask for their next songs.  (By the time I get to 'em, sometimes I'm not sure who's put what in because some people skip turns.)  I'm going to finally stop being a mooch and buy the full version of RoxBox so I can use their singer list stuff, plus all the pitch shifting, etc.

(Embarrassed)  I have to admit that I thought the double-instance of WinAmp was some sort of bug, ha!  I'll have to actually RTFM and figure out how to start using the 2nd to play in between singers...

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Josie Nutter
Karaoke Hostess at the Skylark Cafe & Club in Seattle ~ Tues